In general, I think that’s a good rule for everyone to follow, unless your horse obviously likes the attention. I keep my horses at home, and they are not stalled most of the time, but sometimes they have to be. They allow me to work around them in their stalls, but at least one of them would definitely NOT like the extra attention…no petting, no cuddling. She’s a 26 year old former TB broodmare; she’s been there and back again. Not she wants to be left the F alone. LOL. And she will do the pinned ears and air biting if you walk by her stall when she’s waiting to be fed, but I don’t think she would dare do that in the stall. But…maybe if I really pestered her she would. She’s not cuddly. I’m fine with that - I am willing to accept “respectful” and nothing more.
For some horses “their space” is a sort of sanctuary. If this is her only vice then I would try and stop doing the things you know annoy her( as you are doing). As long as you can enter her stall and get a halter on her without ear pinning and aggression , feed her, clean the stall and fill her water without fear of being attacked then I would just let her be.
You say she is improving so just give her time to improve more. Take her out of the stall to love on her.
Do not “hang out” in her stall. Leave a halter on her if that helps you. If you need to catch her, do something with her in the stall, clean the stall, groom her or other necessity, catch her right away, and tie her to the wall. Do what you have to do in her stall, give her a pat/stroke, tell her she’s a “good girl”, untie her and leave. If she looks uncomfortable with you in her presence, put your hand on her, and soothe her for a moment, then finish what you need to do, and leave. If this mare has had ulcers, she has been stressed and uncomfortable at some point of her life. Ever had an ulcer yourself? It’s pretty miserable. She may be transferring the blame for that to a human, or a stall, or being touched when feeling bad- she associates human presence and stalls with pain. If her health is better now, this is no longer the case, but her memories remain, her attitudes remain. Try to see the situation from HER point of view, her being a horse and perhaps not being as “rational” as a human is supposed to be. Her attitude may not be “rational” to you, but it’s hers, and until she starts to change that attitude of her own accord, her opinions need to be respected. And you need to keep yourself safe. So be careful. Because yes, she can hurt you while defending herself. Take her out of the stall to do your grooming etc, it’s out of “her space”. Make her think that you trust her, but don’t trust her. She must learn to trust you, and she doesn’t at the moment. She’s defending herself from you. This is all IF this is the case. You are the one who is there, watching what is happening. It is up to you to figure out if this is the case, not someone on the internet. Good luck!
I board in a self care barn with runout paddocks off the stalls and no cross tie area, so we groom and tack up in the stall. All the horses here adapt to people in their stalls. But I would feel much less comfortable being in the stall with a horse in a normal stall. There just isn’t enough room. In our stalls it’s much harder to get trapped. And the horse can walk away.
In a regular stall with no runout, I honestly wouldn’t do much with the horse in the stall unless I really knew and trusted them. I would take them out to groom, tack up and clean the stall.
Not all horses love cuddles. My mare is super social and friendly but she expresses it by being interactive. She will start her clicker tricks. She doesn’t love being groomed or scratched. She doesn’t want you around when she’s eating mash.
I kind of disagree with the “don’t hang out in the stall” school of thought. Obviously if she shows aggressive behavior and you don’t know how to respond to it, don’t hang out in there, but I have had an immense amount of success with many horses by “hanging out” with them. Though hanging out doesn’t mean going up and petting them, it means going in, just standing there ignoring them while doing something else like reading on your phone or whatever, but not looking at them. Do it in a spot you can keep your eye on them, be able get out if you need to if you don’t know them or trust them, and aren’t right on top of them. Preferably the opposite side of the stall from them where you couldn’t reach out and touch them if you wanted to. I wouldn’t do this with a seriously aggressive, unpredictable horse of course, but I dont think enough people take the time to just “exist” near their horses without asking anything of them or messing with them. I swear it makes a difference.
Am I missing where the aggression is? I’m really not sure why some people think this is a disciplinary issue. The horse is not comfortable with OP. How else would you like them to communicate that? The mare isn’t biting OP, she’s pinning her ears and biting the air. That’s not aggression that’s “hey I don’t like this.” Why would you punish your horse for voicing that? What else are they supposed to do to tell you somethings wrong? They can’t use words, this IS how they talk to us.
I think some of you just genuinely don’t feel that your horse is entitled to an opinion.
What? I’m sorry how else would you like her to communicate her discomfort? She’s not biting at OP, she’s not trying to kick OP, she’s pinning her ears and biting the air. She’s saying something is wrong. It’s totally unfair to punish her for that. Would you honestly prefer your horse to just suck it up and deal even though they don’t feel comfortable? I would hate for my horse to feel like that around me. If somethings wrong I want to know.
I agree with that, its like dogs. When you punish a dog for growling you arent doing anything but taking the warning away before a bite.
You dont have to chill in her stall. You can still do work in her stall, expect her to behave for getting her stall clean and other chores.
My mare had a similar temperament when I first bought her. She had to be sedated during the PPE and there was no point in using hoof testers because she reacted to everything. At one point during the PPE I was questioning if I should go forward with it because of her behavior. But she had been so well behaved and safe when I had handled her. She turned into a different horse the second the vet was involved. I bought her anyway.
For the first few weeks she was very defensive in her stall. She was swing her butt at you when you walked in. She had to be twitched and blindfolded to pull a coggins (which occurred in her stall). She would setback when her feet were trimmed. I had assumed she had a needle issue because of her behavior. I quickly discovered she had no problems with needles if it was a trusted handler. Her issue was with vets.
Over time she became super easy to handle. I never disciplined her in her stall. She was never aggressive, just defensive of her space. Once she trusted me she stopped acting defensive. I would hand graze her, ground drive her and other in hand work just as much as I rode her. Now she is perfectly behaved in her stall She ground ties, including for the farrier. She’s great with the vet as well. She hates to be groomed but I learned how to massage her myself through trial and error and she adores me on those days.
Assuming you rule out physical issues, I think you need to form a bond with this horse outside of what occurs under saddle. If you ride her 6 days a week, she may just associate you with work. Spend 2 days just grooming, grazing and maybe desensitizing her to things on the ground (ie something that makes her learn to look to you for leadership and build trust). Spend 3 days riding her like normal. And come one day a week just to come into her stall, let her calm, brush her down quick, give her a carrot and leave. Make her do carrots stretches in her stall as the very last thing you do with her every time you leave.
Exactly. It reminds me of this warwick Schiller video where he describes this type of training as “stop crying or ill give you something to cry about” and why that mindset can be damaging to both people and horses. https://youtu.be/OnI4Nez4ShU
I once took care of a barn where one of the horses had started life with the odds stacked against him: wild caught mustang, gelded late, scared the sh-t out of his handlers at the time & standing on 3’ of packed down, p-ss-soaked bedding because they were too afraid to do anything beyond throwing hay & water at him. Fortunately, he was plucked out of there by a skilled trainer. She had the know-how to bring this horse along to the point that he actually enjoyed people & could be haltered & led on a flat lead ( he had been head shy to the point of being untouchable).
What I found fascinating as a hippie trippy crunchy granola energy worker/low-key animal communicator was that he had somehow never mastered stall etiquette. And he suffered from a wicked case of equine resting you-know-what face. Like, “who stole his ears?!?” level bad. He’d turn his head to the corner, butt to the stall door & wait. Yet it became clear to me after watching a few different people interact with him that there was no aggression involved. He was a tad nervous & somewhere along the line learned to cope by hiding in the corner. He could sense the person entering his stall was uneasy, but couldn’t understand it was due to his cobra face. He reacted by doubling down on his disappearing into the corner schtick: “What? I’m not doing anything! What do you want? Come in.” The person’s nerves spiked, and a negative energy loop ensued where they fed off each other.
Poor soul just didn’t understand what was expected of him. What I ended up doing was to start by standing outside the stall door & call his name in a friendly tone. He would hang his head out the door & allow himself to be haltered. From there, we progressed to feeding, & eventually, mucking out. Usually, his ears stayed pinned; the rest of the aggressive horse body language was missing.
Ime, a lot of unwanted behavior is simply the horse not understanding expectations. And most want you to be happy with them & will adopt your way of doing things if you clearly demonstrate what you need. Worth a shot.
Well, since no cause has been found (yet), there is a line you will have to draw if this behavior prevents you from doing necessary things with the horse, even while you still consider reasons.
If I went to attach a lead line to this horse and she lunged at me with mouth open, teeth bared - I would absolutely be making a loud “HEY!” or other noise. If I actually was bitten, I’d be much louder. Of course I would also be checking to make sure there isn’t an obvious reason for this behavior (arthritis, ulcers, other issue).
That said, I would not start screaming at, or beating a horse for air biting - that’s certainly not going to help anything. But I would hope for improvement over time if the horse was otherwise checked by a vet with no major findings and/or treated for ulcers etc. as they are found, but also ridden/fed appropriately, and given ample turnout and “down time” in their stall. (Meaning leave them alone!)
And if the air biting is happening while eating, for example, while you walk past her stall - I’d laugh and just keep walking. She wants to eat in peace - that’s fair.
It may just take time. If this is a learned behavior (e.g. sour lesson horse, who just wants to rest), it’s not going to go away over night.
If the horse is making the owner feel uncomfortable about being in her stall due to fear of being injured, then the method of communication the horse has been allowed to use is inappropriate. Is it the horse’s fault? Nope. It still has to be dealt with. A horse that is not a solid citizen with good manners is a hazard to its own longevity.
You are exactly the kind of person that would have turned my current horse and my stallion into raging menaces to society and themselves. Both strong-willed, demanding, with an inflated sense of right and wrong, justice and inequity, a grand sense of humour, and a strong need to test boundaries repeatedly until absolutely 100% sure that the boundary was a thing. Both ended up solid citizens, totally trustworthy and 2 of the happiest horses I have ever known, but sure, telling a horse to tone it TF down and communicate in a people-safe way is wrong LOL!!!
First, I agree with not working in the stall more than you have to. It is a good sign that her behavior is getting better, not worse!
I think I would do some groundwork to give her and you/staff some tools. If you are concerned about people working in her stall, teach her “face”. In another area you teach her that when she hears that, she is to face you directly, butt opposite you. Then transfer it into the stall. After that if she is acting upset in her stall all staff should know to say “face” and they will be able to approach. (in most circumstances) You can also teach her something to do when you stand at her shoulder (perhaps “down” for dropping her head) that you can use before she gets upset to help defuse whatever she is worried about.
I have found it is a lot easier to teach a horse to do something rather than focusing on trying to teach them NOT to do something!
That’s not the horse’s intent. She’s not doing to to threaten OP, if she was she’d be lunging and biting at OP. She’s pinning her ears and biting the air. She’s saying “I don’t like this” not “I want to hurt you.”
Manners??? Again, am I missing something? The horse isn’t plowing OP over, the horse isn’t biting OP, the horse isn’t moving to kick OP. Why is the horse expressing their emotions bad manners?
Ok what?! I’m all about boundaries, but some of understand equine behavior that we don’t equate all ear pinning as the horse being “dIsReSpEcKtFuL”. Maybe 20 years ago we all thought that when dominance theory was popular, but jeez, get with the times.
Cool, so is my young horse.
You still won’t elaborate on HOW you want the horse to communicate. This horse IS communicating in a people safe way. The issue is, you just don’t think your horses deserve opinions and I find that mindset dated and gross.
Also, it’s not always about “making the behavior stop.” OP could walk in with a crop and get the mare to stop the behavior if she really wanted to. That just wouldn’t be solving the horse’s stall anxiety, it would just essentially be telling the horse to “shut up about their anxiety.” Maybe that’s the type of horse person you are, but some of us strive to be better than that.
This sounds like a wholeeeeeee lot of anthropomorphizing… horses are just horses, it’s truly not that complicated. Equkelly is right!!!
If it is safe to try this.
Fifty-sixty years ago I read in two or three books of people’s experience with horses (I know at least one was definitely non-fiction, & I think the other ones were too. Sorry, I just do not remember which books.) The person gets a horse, horse is crazy afraid. The person either sleeps right out side the horse’s door (it is necessary for the horse’s nose to be able to touch you I think, full door won’t work) or, if the person felt safe enough, slept inside the horse’s stall on some bales of straw (I told you the books were from long ago!).
Come morning the people were alive and uninjured and the horse accepted them as valid, peaceable horsemen.
This would give the horse 8 hours to just look you over, check you out, and decide everything is all right as you snore peacefully through the night.
I’ve never had to do this, my horses liked me just fine and I never bought a “wild” one (well, weanling colts that had been handled but were scared because EVERYTHING just changed when I brought them to my place.)
Think about it. If you are physically safe one 8 hour session sleeping could save you hundreds of hours of angst.
But only if you can do it SAFELY, safe from other people and safe from wildlife.
Just keep yourself safe. I would not sleep inside the stall myself but I would on the other side of a half door or sturdy web guard.
The fact that it has gotten significantly better without targeted work leads me to think it is more fear/anxiety than true aggression. The easiest and kindest option is to pull her out of her stall and mess with her. Let her stall be her safe place. As she continues to adjust to a new routine Id make it a habit to pop into her stall give her a rub on the shoulder, treat, and leave. She seems defensive of her hindend and it could have been she got pushed around with a pitchfork during stall cleaning in the past or got disciplined hard for turning her hindend.
Of all the things this is such a non issue, I wouldn’t make it an issue. She’s not directing it to you. It’s getting better with time. Let her stall be a safe place and reward the small positive steps.
Outside of blanketing, I don’t really think there is ever a true “need” for a horse to be handled in their stall beyond human convenience. My personal horse is far more defensive in her stall but removing pressure has made her far more tolerant over time.
Do you work her before or after she’s turned out for 8 hours? Stalling her, working her and then turning her out is a different scenario than turning her out, working her and then stalling her.
Horses constantly produce acid whether they’re eating or not, and on an empty stomach the acid can be splashed around to the upper chambers of the stomach, particularly at a trot/canter. If you’re stalling her and then riding her, give her a handful of hay immediately before tacking her up. Alfalfa has been shown to be a better option, it mops up the acid and helps prevent it splashing the upper chambers of the gut while they’re exercising. It’s better than working them on an empty stomach.
Was she scoped to confirm that she had ulcers, or just treated for them incase she had them?
If she’s just been treated incase she had them, without scoping again there’s no guarantee that the treatment resolved them, it may have just reduced them.
If it were me, I’d get her scoped so that you can physically see if there’s anything in there.
I agree. If she’s turning her heels and trying to evade you, rather than - say - pinning her ears and lunging over the stall door, I’d call it defensive.
One of mine, usually a very solid citizen, went through a short period of behaving this way when he was ill with Cushings’. Once the pergolide kicked in an he was going out and raising hell as usual, the behavior completely went away.
Getting over something upsetting can take a minute, though, so don’t underestimate the memory of pain and fear. Those are very real too.
I disagree with the “let the stall be her safe place” idea. You need to be her “safe place”. She needs to learn that no matter where she is and no matter where you are, you are not a threat to her and she cannot pose a threat to you. She is threatening you with her body language of pinning ears and showing teeth. Whether she’s doing that because she thinks you’re a threat or because she’s trying to dominate you I don’t know. What I do know is that a 1,000 lb. animal has a much better future ahead of her the easier she is to get along with in all situations.
I’ve seen a horse give the same warning to his owner in the past and then quick as lightning he had her by the shoulder, threw her down to the floor of his stall, wheeled around and was lining up his back feet to kick at her while she was down when I intervened with a stall rake and was able to fend him off while my friend was able to get to her feet and get out of the stall.
I know not all horses are that extreme, and not all horses are snuggle-bugs like my goofy guy. But horses need to be respectful and safe. Any number of situations could arise that require them to be safely handled while in a stall.
If she were mine, I’d put a halter and lead on her in the stall and work with moving around her, touching her, finding itchy spots if she has them, maybe doing some clicker training and rewarding her with treats when she’s a good girl about me moving all around her, picking up her feet, brushing her, etc. Eventually drop the lead rope or put it over her neck. Maybe progress to removing the lead rope entirely and just having the halter on her while working with her. I bet eventually she’d stop being defensive. As long as the encounters in the stall are positive, she’ll probably come around.
