Add Ace to the drug cocktail. Give it plenty of time to begin working before you remove him from the stall.
Once he is being hand walked for longer and more often times a day, he may settle into the new routine and not need as much pharma help.
Best of luck.
From J-Lu:
Drugs may be necessary, but I wouldn’t want to resort to them for lengthy periods of handwalking. You don’t want him to associate “time out of stall” with “woozy feeling”. What does your vet say?
Drugs ARE necessary!!!
Associating “out of stall” and “woozy feeling”?!? I’m sorry but that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a long time…
When a horse is on stall rest, all bets are off. You need to do whatever is needed to keep yourself (first) and the horse safe.
In order to heal, the horse needs to relax, sleep a lot and be quiet. No matter what it takes be it a cocktail of drugs, small paddock, chains, ear plugs, etc… Stall rest is not the time to play with training techniques, tricks, walks on tarps or whatever, it is a time to heal in peace.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;8161926]
From J-Lu:
Drugs ARE necessary!!!
Associating “out of stall” and “woozy feeling”?!? I’m sorry but that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a long time…
When a horse is on stall rest, all bets are off. You need to do whatever is needed to keep yourself (first) and the horse safe.
In order to heal, the horse needs to relax, sleep a lot and be quiet. No matter what it takes be it a cocktail of drugs, small paddock, chains, ear plugs, etc… Stall rest is not the time to play with training techniques, tricks, walks on tarps or whatever, it is a time to heal in peace.[/QUOTE]
I agree completely. You risk undoing all the healing that has occurred if you screw up the hand walking part.
The “Mannering halter” offered from this company is correctly called an “iron halter”. This is an old time device, and not often seen any more, and this source is the ONLY source of purchasing one these days it seems. Odd. It’s a great device, but it only comes in the one size. Odd. And yes, as the previous poster said, it is likely too small for a large headed horse. I have one here, from this source, but most of my horses have fairly small heads (TBs, mostly). The funny part is that the advertisement for the iron halter shows it incorrectly fitted, it is upside down in the photo. The ring to attach the lead or lunge line to is supposed to be ON TOP of the nose, like a lunging cavesson, not underneath the jaw. So if anyone goes and buys one of these things, make sure you do not use it as it is shown in the picture LOL. Yes, they work pretty well for many things, for many horses. They are not something “new”. Someone should make them in differing sizes though.
For your situation, have you tried walking him in a lip chain? Many racehorses at the track do not take a step walking in the shedrow without a lip chain in place. Or a lip halter. It keeps their attention, and their behaviour, in check, to stop them from injuring themselves, or others. Correctly used by a skilled handler, not abusive in itself.
The “Mannering halter” offered from this company is correctly called an “iron halter”. This is an old time device, and not often seen any more, and this source is the ONLY source of purchasing one these days it seems. Odd. It’s a great device, but it only comes in the one size. Odd. And yes, as the previous poster said, it is likely too small for a large headed horse. I have one here, from this source, but most of my horses have fairly small heads (TBs, mostly). The funny part is that the advertisement for the iron halter shows it incorrectly fitted, it is upside down in the photo. The ring to attach the lead or lunge line to is supposed to be ON TOP of the nose, like a lunging cavesson, not underneath the jaw. So if anyone goes and buys one of these things, make sure you do not use it as it is shown in the picture LOL. Yes, they work pretty well for many things, for many horses. They are not something “new”. Someone should make them in differing sizes though.
For your situation, have you tried walking him in a lip chain? Many racehorses at the track do not take a step walking in the shedrow without a lip chain in place. Or a lip halter. It keeps their attention, and their behaviour, in check, to stop them from injuring themselves, or others. Correctly used by a skilled handler, not abusive in itself.
Drugs. I’ve found fluphenazine works better than reserpine, but it can have some scary side effects. I’ve used it and never had any of the side effects…it was a wonder drug.
You don’t state your horse’s injury, but rearing puts a lot of stress on your horse’s legs. So, there are two reasons you need to make a drastic change - human safety & good healing.
Have you talked to your vet about the issues you’re having? He may be able to revise the rehab protocol to keep everyone safe. I wouldn’t change it willy-nilly but clearly something has to change!
[QUOTE=Flash44;8161890]
Although I’m a huge proponent of ground work, in this situation you need drugs. Because you are in the handwalking portion of a rehab program, the vet wants very limited, restricted activities at this time. Bucking, rearing, cutting up and possibly getting loose are not within the recommended activities.
You have a young, good feeling horse and I don’t think it’s the time to try to teach him something. He has an abundance of energy and you have to expect him to act how he feels. Once he is back to normal and has a more normal exercise routine, you can go about working on his ground manners if you need to. Good luck with him, he sounds cool![/QUOTE]
IME layup is NOT the time to quibble over ground manners, period, so I agree w/ this post. You are past the point where you can work with this horse - like most horses he is out of his mind through no fault of his own and layup is not the structured time needed for learning.
HOWEVER, if he is safe in the stall, look into clicker training. I had a lot of luck keeping my TB quiet (with no drugs, surprisingly) while he was on layup for 4 months - I did clicker training in his stall before and after hand-walks, and he genuinely seemed to enjoy it.
I tenth, eleventh, twelveth(?) drugs. Try the ace pills, crush a few in apple sauce and oral syringe it a half hour or so before hand-walking.
We’ve been in the race horse business for close to 50 years. Unless you REALLY knock them out with high doses I don’t think drugs are great for a long term rehab…THAT"S a lot of drugs!! I just invested in a Noavel halter/headstall after watching a “new to us” blacksmith use it on two of our horses…not outlaws, but one rude mare and one energetic/enthusiastic stud. I was impressed!! I’ve used an iron halter in the past, but it IS limited due to one size only available. There was no abuse involved with the Noavel halter…just a gentle wiggle of the lead rope and the horses “saluted” the handler and never made another mistake!! I prefer education over medication. Just my opinion!! The Noavel halter is available on eBay (three sizes) or from the patented inventor. I got mine in 3 days, free shipping. Good luck OP.
Ace or dorm. Been there, done that with my TB when he was 4. 9 months of no turnout, with hand walking and eventually progressing to rehabbing him fully under saddle before he could be turned out again. Without Ace, we’d probably both be dead.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;8162018]
Drugs. I’ve found fluphenazine works better than reserpine, but it can have some scary side effects. I’ve used it and never had any of the side effects…it was a wonder drug.[/QUOTE]
Fluphenazine made my horse MUCH worse.
I agree with the general consensus. Drugs, lip chain, and long shank. Use a lunge line if you don’t have a 12’ shank. Unless he’s pretty doped, there’s a likely chance he will try to rear again…and him getting loose is not conducive to good rehab.
Use a lip chain if needed, or if he’s uncomfortable walking with you holding on the lip chain, try a small bungee. Get the smallest bungee you can find-- usually about 6" with tiny metal hooks-- and clip it to the side rings of his halter, under the lip. This will provide stable pressure on his upper gum, but allow you to hold a regular chain shank on his nose. We did it frequently with TB yearlings for the sales… it is unobtrusive and if you need to give slack in the shank, it won’t fall off the gum.
I had the best luck with Ace. Like the fact you give it shortly before taking them out and it does not last all that long. Mine got by on 1cc injected about 30 minutes before going out, lasted about an hour. They weren’t on it all the time and on nice, hot summer days, didn’t need it at all, you could usually tell when you took them out to groom if they needed it ir not.
Those were all 16h or just under so imagine if you had a big, stout type, you might want to up the dose.
I never had a problem with one tearing up the stall trying to further break themselves so never needed to go to any of the longer acting alternatives, thank God.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8161383]
Yes, drugs. I doubt the metal noseband is going to do much a correctly applied chain isn’t. It’s certainly not going to balance out the substantial weight/ strength difference.[/QUOTE]
IME, the metal rings-- I’ve heard 'em called a “stallion ring”-- do have a better effect than chains.
I think they can deliver a stronger punch. And they are easier on the handler’s body. If you want a little bit of “shock and awe” for the horse who hasn’t exploded yet but is thinking about it, you won’t have to use so much shoulder and arm to get it done with a stallion ring.
As someone who always seemed to get this bad job with these horses, and has the mileage on her body to show for it, I would favor a stallion ring over a chain for a tough horse and a long term hand walking gig.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;8161926]
From J-Lu:
Drugs ARE necessary!!!
Associating “out of stall” and “woozy feeling”?!? I’m sorry but that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a long time…
When a horse is on stall rest, all bets are off. You need to do whatever is needed to keep yourself (first) and the horse safe.
In order to heal, the horse needs to relax, sleep a lot and be quiet. No matter what it takes be it a cocktail of drugs, small paddock, chains, ear plugs, etc… Stall rest is not the time to play with training techniques, tricks, walks on tarps or whatever, it is a time to heal in peace.[/QUOTE]
Well good for you! So glad you think my post is so ridiculous, I got that tidbit from a Wellington dressage vet. Since you seem to know this individual horse so well, perhaps this horse needs drugs. Perhaps not. I watched a young high dollar import “kite” get handwalked without drugs for months, and daily drugs for the long rehab were contraindicated. TRAINING was critical for this hot horse, and keeping him mentally stimulated was very important. In order to heal, a horse needs to learn to be relaxed and mentally engaged. You go to drugs if you need them, but daily administration of the drugs suggested here for lengthy periods puts the horse at risk for other health problems.
If the young horse is destined for a future that requires TRAINING, then start TRAINING now. It’s easy to rely on pharmaceuticals in the short term but the good trainer is looking down the road.
I’ve done several major rehabs on my horse and he is the WORST at rehabbing. First time around I got a broken hand… Second time around I was flipped over on… Sometimes even drugs aren’t enough but I used them every single time. Some horses don’t need them, some like mine completely lose it and no training is going to keep all 4 legs on the ground when they’re on long term stall rest. Depends on the horse.
The biggest life saver I figured out by the last rehab was ground driving. 10x better than handwalking. Surcingle, bridle with bit (I felt having control at this point took priority over the possibility of “ruining” his mouth… Honestly after all he did I was about to put him in a straight jacket), and two lines with breakaway attachments. Walked behind him (think plow horse). Once we moved up to trotting I did more of a double-line lunging where I could keep him on the track of the ring via the outside line, and I ran a smaller circle towards the inside of the track. Best part is you are out of harms way if he gets crazy.
Has anyone used the Be Nice halter? It is a nylon rope halter with nose knots, and bronze “nubs” on the crown. Horse resists/pulls, crown tightens and the nubs work the poll. Instant release when horse gives to the pressure. Not sure this is a good idea for one who rears, though. At least it comes in larger sizes!
I am all for ground training, for manners, etc. I think that every young horse should be able to walk in a regular halter with a regular lead rope and be 99.99% trustworthy. It’s essential for building a solid citizen.
However when you have that same horse on stall rest with an injury, the rules simply don’t apply. Because that one time he tears up and spins around could be the time he injures himself. You can’t train that out of the horse without the horse exhibiting the behavior first.
The reason you rely on drugs is not because its easy. It’s because drugs are going to keep the horse and the handler SAFE.
So yes, drug him, and don’t think there’s anything wrong with it because it’s keeping you and your horse safe. Also, I like ace and dorm for situations like this. Both can be injected IM. I have done a cc of ace and if that wasn’t enough I went in with a half cc of dorm (vet recommended). It worked great, kept the horse walking well but very clearly knocked him down a few levels on the crazy scale.
I’ve also seen ace used orally. Smallish horse, 3cc orally, 15-20 minutes later, ready for a polite walk.
YMMV.
Well, no one has mentioned this yet, but you definitely need some better drugs for this horse.
There are a LOT of options. Fluphenazine would be an excellent choice–it really seems to zap the “crazy” and it is long acting. Ace is a great tried and true option. Dormosedan is excellent also, but expensive and short acting. I’ve not had great luck with resperpine, I don’t use it on my layups in general.
Not all layups need drugs, but if you need them, you need them. You do what’s best for the horse, because you are responsible for its wellbeing. Some horses deal better with being laid up than others. Some can respond appropriately to a certain type of restraint (lip chain, for example) or routine (the horse will behave quietly on a walker). Some horses just can’t. A 1200 lb. 3 yo colt that is struggling with anxiety and high energy levels during a layup will avoid learning bad habits like rearing, etc. if he is appropriately chemically restrained.
Always put safety–both human and horse–ahead of any training agenda.
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