Stallion Collection Fee - WWYD?

[jvanrens]

Regardless of what your vet thought, the semen was viable unless there was a fence jumper in the neighborhood. I’d have to be pretty broke to get into a pissing match over $210.64. I’d rather have the stallion owner happy to sign the breeding report so I can register the foal.

[Unfforgettable]

As someone who has both collected a lot of stallions and inseminated a lot of mares: Bottom line, you got semen that may have been less than ideal, but you used it and got a foal as a result. Pay the fee!

[bingbingbing]

@Miichelle

I bred my mare last year to a stallion in Canada. The first shipment of cooled semen was sent in a disposable container and arrived at my vet with only 20% motility. My mare was ovulating (and I was at work and unable to be reached) so my vet used it and told me that the odds weren’t good but the timing was perfect so maybe I’d get lucky.

My vet contacted the stallion owner and their response wasn’t at all what I expected. There was no concern shown that the semen arrived in what my vet considered non-viable condition. Their response (to me) was that when she was contacted by my vet “she went straight to the sample they kept back, put a drop on a pre-warmed slide, warmed the sample in the incubator at 38 degrees for 5 mins. When looked at, the sample was well over 50% PMS”. I expected some concern that something happened during shipping, complications at the border, I don’t know but certainly not, essentially, “not our fault”.

Not surprisingly, my mare wasn’t pregnant when ultrasounded. So we tried again. Did hormone shots and ultrasounded, the mare is due to ovulate so our vet calls the stallion owner for a shipment and has them send the semen in an Equitainer this time. The semen arrives at LESS than 20% motility. My vet is very good with years of experience but still had two other vets take a look because she wanted confirmation that the semen really was that bad since this was the second time this had happened. It was that bad. My vet called me at work and I told her to go ahead and use it since my mare was ovulating and this was all we had available.

I received my bill from the stallion owner (all this is by email or FB messenger) and it’s much higher than I anticipated. I was expecting it to be high, the Equitainer was a lot more to ship and had to be returned, but here’s the big one: I was charged a collection fee of $210.64. I was shocked. I don’t breed very often but know several stallion owners and the ones that I’ve dealt with have always been awesome! The stallion contract clearly reads “[Stallion owner] agrees to provide fresh cooled semen from [stallion] in viable condition at time of delivery to the shipping address provided on the Semen Request Form." When I inquired about the collection fee, I was told, “Once the semen leaves our control we cannot be held responsible for what happens to it.” I’m sorry, but the contract I signed states otherwise.

At the same time that this was happening we were making a very long distance move, the truck broke down on the way, etc. So I paid my bill, minus the collection fee, and moved on. We didn’t ultrasound the mare because the odds were so low that she was pregnant and she appeared to come in heat shortly after we got to our new place. The mare was on pasture in a mixed herd and appeared to be cycling normally since we got here. I had no plans of breeding until I got better facilities so I didn’t worry about it until, about a month ago, I did a double take on our fat mare. She still had a “hay belly” but she was looking a little ribby and just not quite right. You guessed it! Mare was pregnant! I vaccinated the mare, started feeding her better/extra, and waited. A few days ago we had a beautiful, healthy colt! I made the obligatory Facebook announcements and yesterday received an email from the stallion owner basically saying, “We told you it wasn’t our fault, now pay the collection fee”.

So. What would you do?

It is not what you would like to hear, but I am sticking with pay the collection fee.

You keep posting that you received non-viable semen from the first collection and that the first collection motility was better than the second. Your mare got pregnant with the second collection, semen your vet stated was lower motility than the first collection. You have a foal, pay the fee.

[Tee]

I’d pay, consider it a lesson learned, and move on.

[Daventry]

As a Stallion Owner, here is my two cents. If we had shipped semen from one of our stallions, and it arrived in less than stellar condition and the mare did not get pregnant, we would have not charged the Mare Owner for a second shipment. BUT, that is how we would do it…and not necessarily how other Stallion Owners would do it. For us, it is a matter of keeping a stellar reputation as a Stallion Owner and making sure we keep our Mare Owners happy and make every effort to help them get a pregnancy.

If the Stallion Owner is telling the truth and the sample at their end looked fine, it is possible that customs opened the shipping container, took everything out and compromised the temperature of the semen, which in turn, may have resulted in a low motility. That being said, considering that the second shipment also arrived with poor motility, my guess is, this is how that particular stallion ships normally and they were not being truthful with their answer about the semen looking good at their end. As a Mare Owner, been there, done that before.

That being said, as one person posted above, what one person determines to be 40% progressive motility could be another person’s 20%. Or, they eyeballed it at 40% motility and your vet eyeballed it at 20% progressive motility. There is a big difference between motility and progressive motility. The other issue is, when your vet assessed motility, did they first warm up the semen before evaluating? Personally, we have one stallion that, if you do not warm up the semen first before evaluating, most of it looks completely dead under the microscope. Warm it up and there are lots of swimmers. As a result, there can be a lot of variables at play when someone is trying to assess progressive motility.

The frustrating part of this situation is, “[Stallion owner] agrees to provide fresh cooled semen from [stallion] in viable condition at time of delivery to the shipping address provided on the Semen Request Form”…but what is the definition of “viable condition” and who gets to determine that fact? Unfortunately, the fact that you got a pregnancy out of less than stellar semen means, it WAS in “viable condition.” Maybe the first shipment was also viable and there were other reasons your mare didn’t conceive.

You mention an industry standard of no less than 35% progressive motility…but you haven’t provided enough information for the semen you received that had 20% progressive motility. 20% of what? What was the volume and concentration? These numbers are also just as important as motility. For example, if you only received a total of 100 million sperm and 20% was progressively motile (a total of 20 million PM sperm), that is a very different number than receiving 1 billion sperm with 20% progressive motility (200 million PM sperm). It is also important to note that it is often a myth that fresh shipped semen will arrive with 50%+ progressive motility. Even when using CASA, which is a computerized system that precisely and accurately counts each sperm, the experts will tell you that most semen will arrive with less than 30% progressive motility and that anything in excess of 45% progressive motility would be considered stellar semen. Unfortunately, what CASA counts and what the human eye counts can be VERY different. Another important factor to note that motility does not equal fertility. A more important number for stallions is what their First Cycle Conception Rate is…if the Stallion Owner is willing to be honest with you.

Lastly, it is important to read your contract. Every Stallion Owner does things differently. Some Stallion Owners do not charge for the first collection but charge for additional collections. Other Stallion Owners charge for each collection. If your contract says you are obligated to pay for each collection…and you signed the contract, you need to pay for the second collection as you agreed to the terms of the contract. I understand your argument in regards to “viable condition” and the principle of things, but I agree with everyone else that you got a foal out of the breeding, pay the contract, move on and simply do not use that Stallion Owner again. As an FYI, there are a lot of reputable Stallion Owners in Canada, so please don’t rule us all out. As you mentioned already, it is important to choose a Stallion Owner that is willing to work with you and has a great reputation. In many cases, this is more important than the stallion itself.

[GoodTimes]

I totally get what you’re saying, although I probably would have clarified all of this before ordering the second batch.

At the end of the day you got a foal. I would just pay the fee and don’t do any badmouthing until registration of the foal is complete.

I’ll reiterate that are there a number of reputable stallion owners in Canada. You just as easily could have come across the same problem with an American stallion.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=GoodTimes;n10627814]

I’ll reiterate that are there a number of reputable stallion owners in Canada. You just as easily could have come across the same problem with an American stallion.
[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%!

[Daventry]

@GoodTimes

I’ll reiterate that are there a number of reputable stallion owners in Canada. You just as easily could have come across the same problem with an American stallion.

100% agree!

[SPRINGBORO]

if you’re arguing about a $210 bill for collection, think of the grand scheme too everything. Is it worth jeopardizing your foals registration after all the other expenses you have paid? I understand for you this may be the principle for which you are arguing, but I’d move forward as many people have suggested.

[nycjumper]

I’d pay and move forward as well. Semen arrived, semen was viable if you got a foal

[bugsynskeeter]

@Daventry
:applause::applause::applause::applause:

[mvp]

@Miichelle

Well this has been an eye opener. Obviously there are no industry standards that are adhered to in the breeding end of things. Ironically every person that I talked to outside of the horse world thought the contract looked pretty straight forward. The stallion owner sold a product, product did not meet industry minimum standard of 35% PTM, stallion owner replaces said product.

The foal resulted from the second shipment, which was a replacement for the first shipment of subpar semen. It all seemed pretty straight forward but apparently not.

Now I know what questions to ask of stallion owners in the future. I wrongly made the assumption that “viable semen” meant that it met minimum industry standards, not that it it wasn’t completely dead.

Yes, but insofar as you got a live foal, that semen was, by literal definition, “viable.”

I agree that you and they merely got lucky with your mare getting pregnant using semen that showed motility below the industry standard. But you have a foal to show for it. On what grounds will you now argue that, live foal or not, you should not pay the extra collection fee because both- or the second sample didn’t meet that 35% standard?

And if you need the breeder to do anything at all for you in the future, I’d pay the $200.

[Zu_Zu]

Pay the fee ~ enjoy your “goal” = the foal !

[dani0303]

Pay the fee and enjoy your foal. Just remember this if/when you breed again and use a different stallion owner.

[jonem004]

I think you’re probably “right” to not want to pay the fee for the second collection, but being right won’t get you the breeding cert.

If it were me, I would pay the outstanding balance, move on with my life and not do business with that stallion owner again. Even great motility under a microscope isn’t a guarantee of fertility, and 2 tries for a pregnancy is on the good end of normal.

I agree that the stallion owners lack of concern is off putting, and may not be in line with the contract as you’ve conveyed it. But a straight, emotion free cost benefit analysis has me paying the collection fee.

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

As a stallion owner and mare owner, I’m on both sides of this equation.
I’ve had a vet call me and say “the semen you sent is all dead!!”… when I asked if he warmed it up, he hung up and called back later “oh it’s ok now”. So, while most of us as stallion owners do our darnedest to send the best product from our lads, we can’t help who is on the receiving end.
As for “viable”, when it leaves here its viable with a sheet outlining the #s as via a CASA. Once it’s out of my hands, there’s nothing I can do.
Most SOs also don’t do their own collections so that’s $$ out of pocket.

Pay the collection as you should have in the first place.

[ASBJumper]

As a mare owner and hobby breeder - pay the fee, and simply chalk it up to a bad experience and you can choose to not deal with that farm again. Agree with everything everyone has said.

[exvet]

Agree with everyone else (former breeder and stallion owner). I would pay the collection fee.

[trubandloki]

The original post is from April of last year so I am guessing this has been resolved by now.

[Majestic_Gaits]

Agree with the others on determining motility. Without a CASA eyeball estimates vary. Super you got your foal, but I think also you need to pay the fee.