Of course the European xx stallions Viney mentions lived on and proved themselves because they were crossed with warmblood mares (and the total scope number wise of NA breeding is nothing compared to European breeding.)
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Yes, they were bred to warmblood mares and produced many 4* horsesâand a Grand Prix dressage horseâ(Heraldik) over and over again. Or say Stan The Man who produced 3 Olympic Gold medal horses. Fredâs story is touching but totally irrelevant to the question of quality of results. itâs nice that she produced a horse who has proved he could make good riding horses for amateurs and 2 3* event horses. But that simply doesnât compare to other TB stallions with 4* competitors and finishers.
And, yes, I was wrong about A First Romance. Horse did a bunch of 3s in 2013 when it was 11. Had over a year off and then came back in 2015 and did 3 2s in the first part of the year. Hasnât competed in an FEI competition since.
The Germans are dominating eventing at the highest levels with their 1/2 and up TB event horses. To get to 1/2, they have to breed to TB stallions. Often their best horses like Sam and Hale Bob are 3/4ths TB, bred from a TB stallion out of a 1/2 TB mare. Sometimes, like Herr Buttsâ horses, they are as much as 31/32nds TB, and they also made the very highest levels in eventing. I think they have proved the value of high TB blood percentages at the very highest levels of the eventing sport. 100% TBs have done quite well at 4*s even in short format over the past five years or so.
Seems to me that if one were so âpassionateâ about the Thoroughbred in sport, one would want to breed using the German method and find a TB stallion to put on top of an AFR daughterâat least for eventing. A 30 or 35% blood foal, even if highly successful, is not evidence of the value of TB blood in a warmblood because most warmblood event horses have about that much TB blood.
AFR is dead. Breeding his daughters to WB stallions just seems to me to prove that TB blood per se isnât valued by the breeder, but WB blood is.
ENOUGH already. Stop the personal vendetta.
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And it âseems to me that if one were so âpassionateâ (and that was YOUR word vineyridge btw) about the Thoroughbred in sportâ one would do more than sit behind a computer screen, and get out there and put oneâs money where oneâs mouth was.
Talk is cheap.
Do.
Get out there and support those stallions you have mentioned. Do what other people have done, sacrifice things, give up things, put your money, your time, your heart and soul on the line.
Otherwise it is nothing but cheap, empty talk and stunning hypocrisy.
It is clear to everyone reading that you have a personal agenda here and that this is a personal attack and vendetta, and as such a clear violation of the rules of this bb.
It is clear also that you are âcherry pickingâ and manipulating the facts, and choosing only those that suit your personal narrative and purpose which is to attack me and to defame and diminish the reputation of my stallion.
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@Moderator 1 can you please clarify why @vineyridge is allowed to continue to denigrate @Fred life work because it doesnât meet her standard of passion? It is distressing to see this baseless personal attack seemingly being condoned due to lack of consequences on the part of the Chronicle of the Horse Forum.
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Agreed. Itâs getting really upsetting.
@vineyridge I have no idea why you seem so incredibly emotionally invested in what @Fred does or does not do with HER horses, and what she has and has not done with HER horses.
Many of us have chimed in on the realities of the market, pointing out that there really isnât one for full TBs here. Many of us have raised incredibly valid points regarding AFR and his offspring and their success in the real world. Yet you plow on with whatever has your knickers in a knot.
As a typically kind and empathetic Canadian, I can only hope that you speak to a professional regarding whatever it is in your life that is making you so very unhappy.
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@Laurierace perhaps mods have not intervened because while it is a groundless accusation, it isnât a personal attack since Viney is not using ad hominems. I am not saying I agree, as I do find it to be a personal attack (and completely out of line) against someone who has dedicated their life to their breeding program, but by whit of the rules, the moderators may not find Vineyâs posts in violation of them because no insulting adjectives have been thrown.
Viney again misses the point: Stan The Man covered the best mares in Germany, and thatâs why he has top results. Heraldik, again, covered the best mares, and again, thatâs why there are results.
AFR did not have the same massive, talented mare pool to draw from, and yet, he still outproduced himself. Not just once, but many times over. Perhaps if AFR had been standing where Stan The Man or Heraldik stood, you would have seen a different result. I hate to say it, but the mare base across the pond â well, our USA pool does not even come close in terms of caliber and quality â but AFR was easily available to the American contingent, which is where you see he is the most used.
Have you perhaps considered that there is not a TB standing that could improve Fredâs mare and that is why she went with a WB? Especially if breeding for movement â unfortunately, there are just not that many quality moving TBs currently available. I would love to see you prove me wrong, but even Heraldikâs way of going is not as competitive today as other WB stallions out there.
Viney, everyone here has told you many times to back off. Over the years I have come to value your posts, but I am afraid this is no longer. I am hesitant to hurt your feelings by speaking what I feel, but you have done worse to Fred - you need to let this go. You have completely lost the respect of everyone in this thread, and likely just about everyone who has read it. I do sincerely hope that you let this be, and that you thank Fred for what she has done - which is offer a TB stallion for sport where so few would dare to do. Perhaps when you have done the same, and produced a TB stallion of your own that has offspring competing, you may throw stones â but for now, you are nothing but an armchair critic, and your criticisms need to be taken elsewhere. If you want to help the breed, do so by putting your money where your mouth is â not by accosting someone on a bulletin board.
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Fred, please correct me if I am wrong, but I have always viewed your breeding program as being focused on the value of Thoroughbred blood in sport horses, not solely production of Thoroughbred sport horses. Fredâs blood is found not only in eventing and show jumping, but also the dressage arena. Oh and there are hunters too. There is something to be said for a stallion who proved successful in various disciplines and that versatility brings value to a variety of breeding programs. Certainly his success in producing successful offspring for all rings proves his overall value and contribution to the sport horse.
As I recall you asked for suggestions for your mare to produce an eventer or a show jumper and considered all suggestions with your customary attention, including vineyâs suggestion for a Thoroughbred stallion. In the end, it was your decision to make based on your knowledge of the mare and her family tree and that is the best basis I know to choose a stallion.
Best wishes for a healthy foal.
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@beowulf you may be correct but I personally would like to hear it from the mods as opposed to speculation. If this behavior towards a member is not against their TOS then we need to know that before posting anything of value on a board that condones such attacks. I doubt if that is the case but may be giving them more credit than they deserve when it comes to making this a safe place to share thoughts with peers.
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This discussion is a great example for why many breeders donât post here very much anymore. They post on Facebook breeder groups, where they will have to post behind a real name. CotHâs forum is based around anonymous usernames. Some people on CotH make it pretty clear who they are and stand behind what they post with no hiding or mystery. Most cannot be identified. Vineyridge is one of those.
I find Vineyâs comments on a thread that was a simple âwho should I breed his mare to?â post to be downright disturbing. When one ill spirited, anonymous coward can derail an entire thread, it just reminds me of why I donât come here anymore.
Gail does not need a shred of defending. She is a class act.
My real name is Mary Lou Winn. I used to breed Hanoverians as Home Again Farm in north Florida. Care to introduce yourself, Viney? We are all ears.
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I agree, yet I think most of us feel compelled to defend Gail against such a thoughtless, inconsiderate and ill informed opinion. Gail, please donât let this meanness get you down.
Vineyridge; you seem to have lost sight of the fact that you are addressing a person who has spent her life breeding horses, with the utmost care and attention. If you would have done differently thatâs fine.
However, Gail has been a very successful breeder, cares very much for her horses as well, and your criticism is bitter, unwarranted and smacks of sour grapes.
Gail is a very kind person, who has gone through a very difficult time in her life and has just now come back to this forum, to everyoneâs delight.
She asked for stallion recommendations and you respond by criticizing her stallion and his get, her breeding program, her expertise and her intentions.
I donât understand how people who behave as you have can look at themselves in the mirror. I really donât.
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I just read this thread, and while most (if not all) of the stallions I would have suggested have been written about above, I too am befuddled at the tone and temper of a certain posterâs responses.
The duty of every responsible mare owner who is breeding for performance rather than breed competitions is to investigate every reasonably appropriate stallion to determine the best match for the mare given the intended goals. PERIOD. If breeding for the track or breed specific goals, obviously there are limitations. There may also be limitations of finance, distance, insemination product etc. Thank heavens or we who breed would never be able to make a decision: too many choices in the great wide world.
IMHO, Fred has proven her ability to find the right match with a consistency many should and do envy. I donât envy (or try not to, anyway) but I certainly do admire.
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I have three things to say:
- vineyridge you are appalling.
- This is why I hardly ever read this forum anymore. When I first joined I read it religiously and I learned SO MUCH from the "old gangâ, those that hardly ever post here anymore (for obvious reasons). People like sid, Home Again Farm, seigi, Crosiadore Farm, Fred, Yankee Lawyer, Equine Reproduction etc Now it is just a bloody WB /TB battleground. It has devalued this forum.
- Fred, I know you have made your pick but if you are thinking about breeding for an eventer or jumper again, I will put in a good word for Boulder Ridge Ranch, who are good people and are standing the very interesting Combina. I bred a very nice young jumper prospect by Boulderâs Bam Bam (by Quite Easy) that has now gone to an eventing home in BC. I understand he is now standing in Ontario. The resulting foal out of a Holsteiner/TB mare had a long gallops stride, brave jump and despite the warmblood blood, looked like an old fashioned English TB, good bone, classic looks.
Fingers crossed for and I hope you come back to the forum again. Wish the other experienced actual breeders would come back too.
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Skydy, my intent was not to underemphasize what those have said in defense of Gail - her goodness, her kindness, her integrity, her breeding program and her passion for the TB horse. I may not have expressed myself very well. I agree with all you say here and with all who have defended Gail. Though, to me, Gail should need no defending.
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I am the one who failed to make myself clear. :o
I did understand your post. Your respect for Gail is obvious. In my post I agreed with you that Gail needs no defending, and then (clumsily) proceeded to defend herâŠ
You possess more self restraint than I do. That was what I meant. Iâm sorry for the misunderstanding.
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No worries. I just wanted to be clear that I respect Gail tremendously and I am appalled by the direction Viney sent this thread. :encouragement:
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It is strange that AFR is the target of this derision rather than stallions who actually shouldnât be breeding. What about the TBs who are injured after a handful of races and sent to stud to perpetuate their unsoundness? What about the pinto/dilute/dominant white TBs who have had little success as racehorses or sport horses and are being bred solely due to their color? Seems to me this outrage at a dead stallion is terribly misdirected.
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I think that this particular âoutrageâ has no real purpose or grounding at all, beyond some bizarre expression of spite.
Donât look for sense, or an actual well thought out point of view. There is none.
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As one poster said, those who sit in anonymity. Iâm Terri Berwanger. Easily found. Both my 2016 foals sold to the USA from Ireland. TB damlines.
I have nothing but respect for Gail and all she has done. Everything that she has given up. A horse that not only can breed upper level horses but that can also be first mounts of children learning to ride. Bet you wouldnât see that with Cornet Oblensky.
Iâve been friends with Gail for a long time. I see these babies from her program or from Fred breeding daily. Heâs was a wonderful stallion and long may his lines continue.
Terri
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I just want to thank everyone, again, for your incredibly kind words and support. I am so grateful for your generosity and kindness. Grateful and humbled.
I too am bewildered by the direction this thread, which was intended to be simple and positive, has taken.
As anyone can imagine, I am very upset by some of the comments.
But I know they are untrue on every level.
So, instead, I will concentrate on the positive.
There are terrible things going on in the world right now, and our wonderful horses are our respite.
Kind and good people encourage us to keep the faith and carry on, and try to make a positive difference in our world - in the small and large sense, in any way we can.
I have a beautiful filly in training right now, who jumped her first jump yesterday. She is the image of her sire.
Her trainer has said that she has never ridden a young horse as smart and willing, so level headed and safe. Will she be an upperlevel competitor?
Who knows. But I am proud of her, and the wonderful TB blood she carries, not just through her sire, but also her grandsire, and all those long dead TB horses, who I would like to think watched her jump that little jump yesterday, and nodded their approval.
Thank you again, everyone for your kindness. I am having trouble with my inbox right now, and canât respond there.
Gail.
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