Starting colts, one of many ways:

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=re-runs;7263008]
Ray might not have been perfect, but Im pretty sure Tom Dorrance was very close to being perfect, at least the horses thought so. Ray was the first to admit that he didnt know everything and I have heard first hand from those closest to Ray that when he got a horse troubled that he would say “Tom would never have sent that horse there.”

I didnt have the good fortune of knowing Tom D. but I got to be around Ray quite a bit; for the one or two horses that I saw that he left troubled, I saw thousands that were so much better off. I have also had the good fortune to be around lots of people closest to Ray. When I am working with horses I often hear Rays voice in my head about how things should be, which is why I quote him so often. Tom used stories and metaphors to get points across, and that takes a lot of time to repeat, one liners are a lot faster to relay and easier to remember but most of Rays quotes reflect the stories that Tom had told. Tom was the wisest of owls, he had a heightened awareness that the majority will never be able to achieve, mostly because they dont think they need it; priorities. We may have been born with this awareness but we have lost it along the way somehow. Tom understood all about a creatures/human and animals original instructions and the relationship between the two because that is how he lived, every day. Tom and Ray and Bill were trying to get us back in touch with our orginal instructions and how that related to our lives with horses. Ray brought it to the public, Tom and Bill never cared for money or fame. I don`t think that was front and center to Ray either but, he was much more visible and accessible than Tom and so that is why he is much more talked about.

I saw Ray have some pretty amazing relationships with horses and I don`t mean about making horses do stuff, I mean horses bonding with Ray in just a few minutes, from a distance. The changes in horses were just amazing and of course he got this talent jump started with his friendship with Tom. And that is why I look for Tom in every clinician that I meet that ever worked with Tom or Ray or Bill.

Life would have been pretty empty for me if I hadn`t learned from, in bits, since 1978, what was possible,… from a man named Ray Hunt. I would still be in the dark groping around looking for something that I knew in my heart was there but could not put my hands on it, until I was made aware of “it”.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. He changed a lot of people’s lives, and the horses too. I’m sorry Bluey is stuck on the bucking thing. It doesn’t amount to anything.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7263155]
Yeah. He changed a lot of people’s lives, and the horses too. I’m sorry Bluey is stuck on the bucking thing. It doesn’t amount to anything.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what your point is?

Seems that other poster had seen the same, it is not just me.

I gave two examples of several he did that were less than good horsemanship and already said it was decades ago, that evidently he did so much after that different.
Why are you stuck on that?

It happened, it is something for all to learn from and do better.

[re-runs]

Starting colts, one of many ways.

Doesn`t this sound familiar?
http://www.lrgaf.org/articles/indian-blanket.htm

Perhaps Alexander the Great tamed the great Bucephalus with this same philosophy.

My ancestors started their horses in water up to the horses chests. Lead them out into the water, got on and stayed on until the horses were tired, then got off. Next ride, no big deal. The horses were already used to seeing and feeling a rider on their back.

Bullfighting? The idea is to get the bull hooked onto the cape, not the person. Just don`t get between the cape and the bull or directly behind the cape and you are pretty safe. :eek:

[Bluey]

Starting colts, one more way.

The summer I turned 14, I had already started four horses in the riding school, properly, on the longe line, etc., the instructor doing all the ground work, I was then given a leg up and was the test pilot, on the longe line first, then turned lose riding around the indoor, then taking them out on trail rides.

Well, I was sad I had to go to the farm where I would not have horses to ride, other than the neighbors mule.
Then the owner of the riding school told me they were getting a nice mare in to start, he would just send her up there and I could get her going the weeks I was going to be there.

I don’t know what he thought, I didn’t think anything except GREAT!
Well, here comes the truck with this about 15 hand four year old mouse grey filly, barely halter broke, what fun.

In a few days I could pick all her feet and was getting on her and riding her all over the mountains, bareback and with a halter, I didn’t even have saddle or bridle (or longe line).
I really just got on and rode her, didn’t follow any plan, just did it.
We had a good time, that I remember.
Once back in the riding school, I kept riding her, then with a saddle and bridle and then she went back to the original owner.

There are all ways to start horses out there.
Depending on the situation, the horse and rider, any one may work just fine.
Some times, we tend to make the simple more complicated that it needs to be.

[cowboymom]

So… is the moral of the story that Bluey is perfect (and always has been) and Ray Hunt was not? I know RH himself would agree with the last half of that statement but he wasn’t so arrogant to further himself by denigrating others.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=cowboymom;7263367]
So… is the moral of the story that Bluey is perfect (and always has been) and Ray Hunt was not? I know RH himself would agree with the last half of that statement but he wasn’t so arrogant to further himself by denigrating others.[/QUOTE]

If you are directing that to me, no, I was just responding to the phrase “there are all ways to start horses out there”, that’s all.

The moral of the story could be that there are some very touchy folks out there when certain clinicians are being talked about.

[katarine]

Everyone ( I hope) improves over time.

I rode in a Ray Hunt clinic in 2000, maybe 2001? Four day clinic in Memphis. Really enjoyed it, his little bay mare worked hard to stay under him, they had a true relationship, she was quiet as a mouse but explosive when called upon. He gave us good exercises to do, I witnessed him go far above and beyond to help many people there, he was a gentleman and simply ignored those in the clinic who weren’t paying attention, they pissed his wife off but he just ignored them.

Now he did get overzealous in addressing a barrel horse that the gal had only had a few months, if memory serves, and she was a good hand but the horse came to her sullen and piggy. He would not cross water. Ray got the horse to cross water, but then he kept after the horse when he might have been well served to let him soak and come back to it. Instead he insisted the rider keep riding the horse across a puddle… and the gelding got mad. the gelding’s strategy was to run backwards and fire with both hinds, which really whips the rider in the saddle. the horse double barrelled the side of someone’s trailer, and nearly caved in the side of a Mercedes. He ran backwards at me on my good Jake horse and I instinctively flopped the end of my heavy 1" 8’ long rein over my shoulder and looked at Ray who said ‘hit him, go ahead’ so I happily striped him into first gear…but the horse was (IMO) exasperated and frustrated. Whatever he did wasn’t enough… he’d crossed the water, 5, 6, maybe 7 times, freed up and ok, eared up, honest…and now he was just getting drilled and he was getting pissed. At one point he scrambled backwards so hard and fast he slammed into one of Ray’s own horses, who was tied to a trailer. That horse sat back and flopped about and I think the ridden horse popped forward. It was a bit of a mess. A huge mess. On a hard packed dirt parking area ( it was so cold in the covered arena that we’d moved outside into the sunshine).

Finally, the mad gelding just sulled to a stop and double barreled repeatedly, bam bam bam until his rider, again, a rather competent rider, was knocked unconscious. She collapsed out of her saddle and fell onto her left shoulder on the ground, out cold. She suffered a separated shoulder, if I overheard the reports later, correctly. Honestly she was out cold when she hit the ground. the horse just stepped away from her, off to one side, he just wanted the pressure to stop. I just felt so bad for her, and for him. No one should get hurt at a clinic.

So yeah well we took a lunch break. My friend K and I (alabama on this board) went to lunch with Carolyn, Ray, the clinic organizer, and a friend of hers. when we returned, the lady, her husband, and her horse were gone and there was no more mention of that deal, that horse, that ‘lesson’ at all.

he was a good trainer and a great teacher. but he was a human, too. He made mistakes.

Look, no one is infallible. No one should be put on a pedestal. We can learn from many sources, but every one of us should keep a bit of reserve in check too- at any point on any given day any emperor may be naked as the day is long. That’s ok. We don’t need false idols. We all can only do OUR best.

[Flash44]

Some people get way too much credit for what I call common sense and patience. I learned how to start colts on tb farms 25 years ago, and we did the same thing that the video in the original post shows as far as tacking them up and getting on them. It took us a little bit longer to get on them and hack around the track due to the large number of horses and limited number of riders and limited amount of time each day.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7263945]
Some people get way too much credit for what I call common sense and patience. I learned how to start colts on tb farms 25 years ago, and we did the same thing that the video in the original post shows as far as tacking them up and getting on them. It took us a little bit longer to get on them and hack around the track due to the large number of horses and limited number of riders and limited amount of time each day.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I remember doing that. Tacked 'em up in the stall, where they felt safe. Took 'em out in sets or w/a pony horse. Very little bucking IIRC.

There was a trainer in Aiken (where I wintered afew seasons) who would ground drive ALL his babies before they were ridden. That was abit unusual for the track, but it seemed to work.

I think there are tons of ways to start an untroubled, good-minded horse and still be successful. It’s the slightly off, troubled ones that have issues.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7263945]
Some people get way too much credit for what I call common sense and patience. I learned how to start colts on tb farms 25 years ago, and we did the same thing that the video in the original post shows as far as tacking them up and getting on them. It took us a little bit longer to get on them and hack around the track due to the large number of horses and limited number of riders and limited amount of time each day.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7263987]Yep, I remember doing that. Tacked 'em up in the stall, where they felt safe. Took 'em out in sets or w/a pony horse. Very little bucking IIRC.

There was a trainer in Aiken (where I wintered afew seasons) who would ground drive ALL his babies before they were ridden. That was abit unusual for the track, but it seemed to work.

I think there are tons of ways to start an untroubled, good-minded horse and still be successful. It’s the slightly off, troubled ones that have issues.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I started some colts with a race barn in Southern Pines, NC one winter.
We just “messed” with them a bit on the ground, then hopped on and went on riding them, groups of about four or five colts, with a pony horse along the first few times, down those sandy pine forest roads.

Rarely would one act up and if one was not settling, the pony horse would bump him on a bit, or the exercise rider would get off.
No need to fuss with him from up there when he is skittish past reasoning with him, move it around a bit on the ground, then get back on and line him out along the others and the colt was fine.

There are all kinds of ways to start colts.

[Foxtrot_s]

The point of my post was, that this fellow who took on my mare DID know how to bring out the best in a horse. He may not have gone to dozens of clinics, he just did a good job naturally - none of this la la land stuff. I consider myself a discriminating horse person, and I judged him to be a horseman. That is why so many people spoke so highly of him. He had a full day of working on the ranch, and took on my mare, more as a favour because he did not set himself up as a ‘colt starter’ etc. She turned out awesome.

It’s ok, we all have our viewpoints.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7264135]
The point of my post was, that this fellow who took on my mare DID know how to bring out the best in a horse. He may not have gone to dozens of clinics, he just did a good job naturally - none of this la la land stuff. I consider myself a discriminating horse person, and I judged him to be a horseman. That is why so many people spoke so highly of him. He had a full day of working on the ranch, and took on my mare, more as a favour because he did not set himself up as a ‘colt starter’ etc. She turned out awesome.

It’s ok, we all have our viewpoints.[/QUOTE]

That is wonderful, I have done just that also, as others have sent me horses, we all swap riding horses when we don’t get to it as we need.

It does a ranch horse good to have spent some weeks in a feedlot.
What they learn there is invaluable at times, just as some sent us their horse when they didn’t have enough cattle work for them, or were busy planting, etc.

There are not that many people here riding horses for others.
A friend does that and has to turn people away, there are so many that need more riding out there than we have work for them, in this drought and no cattle.

[re-runs]

Yes, I started colts the way you are all describing.

I did some groundwork, put the bridle on in the stall and let them get used to the bit, started riding them on the longe and did some ground driving, sometimes solo, depending on the horses temperment, then out on hacks with an older seasoned horse or in a group. I found out much later that I was “sneaking rides” and was really just depending on luck, the seat of my pants and the mellow disposition of the good horses to get me through. I was young then and didnt know any better because that is how everyone did it in my neck of the woods. Looking back I can see the things I missed that came out later on and I would have wished they hadnt…I was getting by on most of them. I didn`t have that good of a grasp of the big picture but not many people did, even the successful professionals that threw me up on some of these horses. Some were even mine.

I know more now. I know a better way, the horses are more WITH me now. I`m safer; thank goodness because I am A LOT older.

I understand better what it means to the horse.

Bluey, would love to get the exposure to a feedlot scenerio. I can imagine what a great thing that would be for any horse.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=re-runs;7264164]
Yes, I started colts the way you are all describing.

I did some groundwork, put the bridle on in the stall and let them get used to the bit, started riding them on the longe and did some ground driving, sometimes solo, depending on the horses temperment, then out on hacks with an older seasoned horse or in a group. I found out much later that I was “sneaking rides” and was really just depending on luck, the seat of my pants and the mellow disposition of the good horses to get me through. I was young then and didnt know any better because that is how everyone did it in my neck of the woods. Looking back I can see the things I missed that came out later on and I would have wished they hadnt…I was getting by on most of them. I didn`t have that good of a grasp of the big picture but not many people did, even the successful professionals that threw me up on some of these horses. Some were even mine.

I know more now. I know a better way, the horses are more WITH me now. I`m safer; thank goodness because I am A LOT older.

I understand better what it means to the horse.

Bluey, would love to get the exposure to a feedlot scenerio. I can imagine what a great thing that would be for any horse.[/QUOTE]

I think you did what most good horsepeople do - you were kind and patient and looked to the horse to see how fast you could progress. It’s like reading a book though - you always have to learn your ABC’s first and then progress to graduate level text books. The only way to learn it, is to get out and do it, so there is always a progression on how well and how fast you accomplish your goals. You have to forgive yourself for being inexperienced when you first start out just like you forgive your horses. The best horsepeople will always admit that they are continuing to learn and develop no matter how many years they have been with horses.