BOGOF as slewdo said. I also asked a friend to order some so I got 4 months for the price of 2 months. They’re not cheap. I didn’t see any improvement using them at all. Then I started using Equine Leg Magic and saw a vast improvement within a week (ELM is not peer reviewed or FDA approved/tested so anecdotal evidence only is available).
going thru this now
Had 2 month old foal diplay with slightly swollen stifle, Not lame, vet consult, possible hemotoma, wait and see had it checked again at 4 months same response. At 5 months it was sigificantly enlarged, still no lameness.Vet suggested weaning at this time. We did xrays and ultraounds of both stifles. it was NOT bilateral. Ultrasound showed very significant amounts of synovial fluid and cartlidge flaps. Initial diagnosis was to wait until 1 year of age and go in and debreide. 2 weeks llater vet called and said the Cornel Vet School had come out with a new procedure to reattach cartlidge flap and in young foals has good chance or regrafting back to bone. Cornel developed new disintegrating pins.Of course this only works if cartlidge flap is worthy and not shredded to pieces. We consulted with Purdue and decieded to do the surgery. He was put on stall rest 3 weeks prior to surgery. Sent to Purdue for the orthoscopic procedure and 6 pins were implanted. He arrived home and put on stall rest for 2 months. During that time recieved Platet rich Blood injections every 3 weeks. After 3 injection stifle blew up again. Had vet back out and we re ultrsounded. Of course this time frame would coincide with the time the pins were dissolving. Ultrasound clearly showed the flap was again loose, surgery deemed unsuccessful.
Vet drained off an excessive amount of synovial fluid and injected HA, as he was having difficulty getting up as well. Ultrsound sent to Purdue and they suggest waiting another 30-60 of stall rest , allow his cartlidge to mature more and go in and debrided what is there.I have been told he will never be a preformance horse at this point. He is an absoluet giant at 15 hands at 7 months, I own his Dam and a full brother, and there is no history there of OCD. Stallion has many foals on the ground with no history either, so I am thinking he fell on it of Dam stepped on it very early on. We are currently at a wait and see place. He is certainly more comfortable getting up and dwn, but has spent 1/2 of his life in a stall. He is missing out on learning his herd social skills, and although I work with him everyday on ground training, as much as I can for a horse on stall rest, I am concerned for his future… I have not been able to geld him yet as his stationary protocol for stall rest is not conducive for a worry free castration where he needs to be able to move around…My husband and I are in disagreement about what to do. He wants to do all we can no matter the cost, and I say cut our losses and put him down…not that I want to, he is a beauty, but since I am the one who works with him, I am the one at risk of danger with a comming yealy stud colt who has been on stall rest of ohh so many months. I have thought about just turning him out and letting whatever happens happens. He will get better or not.I just feel that is better than spending a life in a 10x12 box… lots of heartache on this one…I wish you luck.
Equsrider - I’m so sorry.
siegi b. excellent info
Equsrider so sorry and I do understand what you are posting.:sadsmile:
Sometimes prognosis/recovery will depend on the lesions, where it is located, has it chipped, etc.
2 hock examples at our barn:
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~ 8 month gelding, slight off, slight swelling, looked like a bog, radiographed, yup, there is a chip from and OCD lesion. Surgically removed. 3 years later, Horse can be still but the owner does not keep up w/ the Adequan or he would prob be OK.
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~2 1/2 year old tracks funny, sometimes looks “off”. Radiographed at NBC, OCD lesion in joint. Owner told to keep him “light”, as in not fatten him up light a on the line horse, give him the winter “off”. Now as a 5 yr old, is ok. Still moves hitchy in hock but again, owner does not keep up w/ adequan injections.
We have a filly (now mare) that was diagnosed with one at 3. It’s small and inoperable. Alas, I’d have to do a bit of digging to get the specifics on it; the mare’s now 7. She presented as just not quite right in training at 2 (she is a standardbred trotter) so we quite with her, and as a 3yo it re-presented.
She’s one of eight from her dam and only one with this issue. She has a nice 2yo we retained as well.
Please, always remember one thing. You can always put them down later, but you can never reverse that decision once it has been made.
I know I do not post on here (I think once before today?), but I have been a vet tech in the equine industry for close to 15 years. In particular, an anesthesiologist. There are often opinions posted here that I may personally disagree with, but not knowing the true particulars of any case, I always leave the OP to trust those that are involved. However, this thread is touching me personally. Stifle OCD’s are NOT always surgical, let alone a death sentence. So many of these lesions can heal if left alone. I will agree that many of the severe ones are surgical, but WHY is it necessary for your sport horse to be operated on so young? The bone has not fully developed, and quite often more damage is done during a premature surgery by taking too much of the underlying bone. (Consider scooping out ice cream straight from the freezer as opposed to the stuff left out for half an hour)
This is not rhetoric, set to upset the masses. My own baby, pride of my pasture, has a VERY nasty OCD in his right stifle. His older sister and dam are both spotless. Dad was a 25 yr old Holsteiner who had probably never been radiographed, but was a grand prix jumper in his prime. My gelding will be 2 this year, in June. I have been following this lesion with radiographs and ultrasound since originally coming up 3 legged lame one day in April of 2011. He was on stall rest for approximately 6-8 weeks originally. Yes, we did Adequan shots. No, I did not put him on any oral supplement. (Maybe I should have, just want to give as much honesty as possible) Since then he has been turned out. First in a paddock, now the big field with the rest of my clan. He has matured considerably in that time. Radiographs have changed considerably in that time. His lameness has improved considerably in that time. From April until last month the top orthopedic surgeons (IMO), and one of the best performance veterinarians all said “Leave it alone”. One of them actually said (and yes this is a direct quote) “Turn him out and don’t look at him for 2 years.” Yeah - like I could do that! Last month, they finally said, okay…surgery. But we are not planning to do the surgery until at least late spring. If he is sound, he will not be broke until he is at least 3, potentially 4. He has plenty of time for nature to make up her mind before any final decisions are made. The benefit he has received from having time to mature before any irreversible actions are, IMO, unmeasurable. If anybody would like copies of radiographs, I can email privately.
Sometimes, the best reaction is to not react. Give the situation time. If surgery is an option today, it will be tomorrow too. If euthanasia is unfortunately being considered; and I had considered it early on in my case - this is not a judgement!; is it possible to just wait a little while and maybe be surprised?
This is after all, my opinion. You do not know me, and I do not expect my words to matter to most of you. But I feel a little better for writing them anyway.
Okay, my flame suit is on…attack away…
Furst Edition - Thank you for such an honest post!
Definitely no flaming from me.
Weighing in as former licensed veterinary tech and now breeder. I have lots of veterinary contacts in my daily life, both large and small animal. First off, your filly is very young. OCD is a very common developmental disorder, and many, many times, will heal on its own over time. One of the key factors in prognosis as to whether or not the lesion will heal on its own is whether or not there is/has been lameness. Lameness is an indicator, but not a 100% indicator of need for surgical vs non-surgical . Most DVMs recommend waiting for the young horse to age some, re-take radiographs, and going from there. Here is a link to an article that has seen many posts on this board: http://www.salesintegrity.org/pdf/cba_ocd_book.pdf.
I can’t tell you if your filly will be in the heal later category, but a good vet will be able to give you some advice as to this. There are certain lesions that tend to leave fragments. Only a really experienced DVM will be able to visualize those and point those out. Usually, these are DVMs who have had a lot of experience in the field and in surgery. The other issue raised here that I want to address is “radiographs in the field”. You mentioned that your vet took images that had to be developed. That means that they were not digital xrays. From experience, I can tell you that those are not the best images from a diagnostic perspective to be able to assess a stifle lesion. The stifle is located in a place that requires an xray machine with a LOT of power, and typically, the portable machines that use film plates are not in that category. Portable digital machines are the gold standard now. They have the juice to shoot through those thick stifle areas, and the quality of the image is by far a better tool than an image taken with an older type machine. For anybody reading this and having a stifle issue to be evaluated: if the DVM coming to your barn or home does not have a modern digital portable machine, don’t even bother having them come and take radiographs of a stifle. Waste of your money, IMO. You will just have to have those radiographs re-taken by another DVM with a better machine. Good luck, and don’t worry. Read the linked article. OCD is a common issue. If your filly still has a significant lesion 6 mos down the road, then find a surgeon who has done lots of these surgeries. The outcomes are generally quite positive. You can read in the linked article about Adequan and Legend therapies. No one really knows if they help resolve the lesions, but for myself, I would say it is worth a try. It seems some horses will benefit and others won’t, but nobody knows which ones will or won’t. I will also say that nutrition is also important. In my opinion, it is old-fashioned and wrong to go to a negative nutrition state. I know that is what a lot of DVMs were taught, and what a lot of them still preach, but that’s not the current thinking. You do not want to over-supplement, just provide the needed levels to meet growth. That’s a whole other post. Starving a horse nutritionally is just backwards, and makes no sense to me. Give them quality nutrition in order for them to heal those joint tissues. Again, good luck and don’t worry too much! Just screen your DVMs for competence in this issue.
Cant say ive had ant experience with this, but jingles for the filly!
[QUOTE=Equsrider;6091597]
I have thought about just turning him out and letting whatever happens happens. He will get better or not.I just feel that is better than spending a life in a 10x12 box… lots of heartache on this one…I wish you luck.[/QUOTE]
That’s what I regret the most about the colt we had…he spent the last couple months of his life in a stall and he was so happy to get out and go for a walk. So hard when they’re babies.
Furst Edition…
as in my case it was so bad on films and ultraound they really gave him no great prognosis…it was first suggested to wait. Although in my case while there was some bone fragments ocurring, the more significant issue was the torn cartlidge and the excessive synovial fluid… the new technology from Cornell provided some hope for the cartlidge repair and to then wait and see about the bone situation after he had matured some. Unfortunately cartildge did not hold…so we are waiting…In my case they want the cartiledge to be more mature before debriding the shredded flaps. Once that is done than bone on bone degeneration will begin to occur…I assume… so I go back to my statement to turn him out and what will happen will happen…
Thanks so much for posting – and so honestly as well! Sounds like you have the experience to back up your post and that counts for alot in my book.
People have gotten to be almost hysterical about OCD in the last decade…I wonder if so much of it is simply because for the first time (since the advent of digital x-rays) we can actually SEE what we use to miss?
And, from my own personal experience in 3 cases, I concur with the vet that says “turn 'em out and forget about them”. That is somewhat extreme, and I’m sure he didn’t mean it literally, but that’s what we did with my friend’s filly and it sure worked. The only “treatment” was adding the OCD pellets to her feed.
I’ve had several other experiences where vets recommend prolonged stall rest (confinement). In one case it had nothing to do with the horse having OCD, but she developed it and I am convinced that in this one case the 5 mos she spent locked in a 12 x20 stall actually CAUSED the OCD.
In another case (contracted tendons and afew other leg issues) I was instructed to keep the filly stalled. The vet was pushing surgery big time (of course, he was a surgeon :D), but I went for modest treatment (hoof extensions) and did NOT confine the foal completely. I monitored her closely all day and put her in the stall when she started to look tired or “wobbly”. I’d let her rest for afew hours, then she got afew hours out. Rinse, repeat. Oh, and I gave her DAM a double dose of the OCD pellets, since the filly was only afew weeks old.
By the time she was 3 mos old she was almost 100% corrected and the vet was amazed – since he’d told me he was “90% sure” she would never correct without surgery.
Oh, and he told me at that point she didn’t need the toe extensions anymore and that I should start turn-out. HA! Little did he know she had been on 24 hr. “turn out” for the last month or so!!
Edited to add: the poster who made the point about “field xrays” is correct. Even when using digital, it’s not easy getting (or reading)accurate rads of the stifle.
I know this because when I found my stallion so lame in the pasture he would not take even one step forward, I called the only vet in my area with a digital machine. She started from the hoof & worked her way up…said she was “pretty sure” the stifle was clear, but couldn’t be 100%. She said she couldn’t go any higher (rad-wise) without us taking him to WSU and laying him down to #1) confirm her stifle xrays and #2) get pics of the pelvis.
As it turned out, it was the stifle…and he was put down (let me be clear – this was a fracture, NOT OCD)…after he was dead they flexed the joint and you could hear the crepitis from 10 ft. away…
And taking accurate rads is just the first step – then they have to be read. So if you have digitals, you can email them to real experts for 2nd or even 3rd opinions.
So, to the OP, don’t panic yet…it could well be the rads are misleading…
More jingles, btw…
Thank you! It DOES sound cute, doesn’t it? And the buyer is absolutely thrilled that out of her 5 horses tested by this trick trainer guy (who she said is very well known, but I’ve never heard of him), Kyra was far and away the best prospect!
She goes for training this spring…I’m sure she will post vids on YT! Can’t wait!
equsrider I am so sorry, how heartbreaking
THANK YOU ALL for the advice, commiseration and good wishes.
Still in the wait and see mode. Unfortunately filly seems to be worse not better. The last two mornings she has been down and convinced she can’t get up and both stifles are swollen now, with the worse one being painful to the touch. Yesterday she got up when I switched neighbors on her (don’t want anyone to have to be in 24/7 so she has a day babysitter and a night one). Today she got up on her own accord, but it was obvious she had been scooting around the stall for awhile before I got there and she ate breakfast lying down.
Warning vent:
Called the vet today because I was out of equioxx and I still hadn’t heard from WSU, oh they haven’t sent them to WSU yet because their processor is still broken and they haven’t gotten a replacement yet and so they haven’t been able to develop the films of the “good” stifle. They didn’t want to send just one and not the other apparently. I know it’s not the vets fault, but it is frustrating. If the roads weren’t so bad and my schedule so crappy I’d just load her up and get her over to WSU and forget waiting for a call.
I am hoping we can wait on surgery, but I’m not going to watch her suffer if we can’t manage the pain better. Did I mention I don’t have much patience with this stuff? LOL.
Thanks for letting me vent and again for sharing your experiences.
As far as the OCD phamplet goes, I finally read it in entirety on my way home from the November sales in KY. It was pretty interesting, for those that haven’t read it, I highly reccomend it.
We buy there at two different levels, for ourselves, which involves reading the vet report and passing on most things and for my boss which involves having a private vet take our own set of rads and scope. It would be interesting to work in the middle of the two extremes and have a vet read the rads on horses that vetted with OCD’s to learn what is and isn’t considered “scary”. It’s amazing how many of those babies have vet issues as weanlings.
Jenny – if the rads were digital they don’t need a “processor”, they can be sent immediately via email. So that means the rads were NOT digital, so who knows what they say.
And when we talked, I asked if you read the results of the OCD study that was done in Germany, NOT the pamphlet…although that could be good as well. Go to the American Hanoverian Society site and they should have a link to it.
What an informative post! Is there an age when it can be called safe that a youngster will not get OCD?
Finally got the holstein study finished, I agree with all of it, unfortunately there will be no turn out for miss Ruffi until I talk to the vet and all this darn ice goes away. Her friend Courdoroy must not have put the brakes on soon enough last night in their pasture since I arrived this morning to find the gate t-boned and a gash on her knee. Sigh.
So the vet got a new processor and the rads of her good stifle were clean. He emailed them to the vet at WSU and talked with him via phone however I haven’t heard from him yet.
The way the vet explained it (he may have been blowing smoke who knows) is that there are two types of digital machines and a huge price difference between the two. The one the plate is attached to the computer via a cable which gives you instant rads. The other the plate is similar to your typical plate but it’s run through a processor and 15 seconds later the image appears on the computer. Total PITA when you are doing full surveys on four yearlings in one day - VERY LONG DAY. However it’s better than the old way and the only one we have in town.
Ruf is still having a hard time getting up. When I left last night she was down and I was afraid she would still be down this morning but she was up. Yesterday morning I gave her a jolly ball while she was down and she was pretty entertaining playing with it. I will have marestare hooked up no later than Monday so that I can keep an eye on her from home and monitor how long she stays down and how long she struggles to get up.
Hopefully I will hear from WSU soon.
