[QUOTE=why not;4784058]
Thank you, I thought I was the only one finding this horse quite average. One picture taken at the right moment may make him look good, the video shows a horse that has reached his freejump limit at an oxer of 1.20
He would not pass the pre-selections in Holstein with such a performance.[/QUOTE]
And that’s why I used the term “back door policy”.
Well, the question is:
Was that comment about California Chablis who is performing in Grand Prix and Intermediaire dressage in USA very successfully and who is not a jumper bred horse, or was that comment about that buckskin stallion approved Zangersheide.
My comment was on Cream on Top.
My comment was on Chablis:
SATURDAY, MARCH 29, 2008
Prix St. Georges - Open
© Koch,
1 Nicholia Zamora Ramsgate D 68.500%
2 Willy Arts Preston 66.250%
3 Mary Burke Prince 65.250%
4 Jan Ebeling Westcoast 64.000%
5 Nick Wagman Rock 62.750%
Tom Murray Pepper 19 61.000%
Nick Wagman California ChablisHere is another one…and he is really nice. He was here on my farm for a while… http://goldhopefarm.com/good_as_gold.htm
Buckskin Warmblood stallions
L & L and Peskee, thank you both for mentioning Good as Gold, our 2006 Buckskin Oldenburg stallion. He received his Certified Breeding License in 2009 with the Oldenburg/ NA and will do his performance test this fall. http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=stallions_approved%stallions_detailed%list&p=3#g
Good as Gold has all European bloodlines, being by Goodtimes and out of the graded Dansk Varmblod (and approved Oldenburg NA) Michellino mare Alino Queen, who was imported as a yearling from the Netherlands and comes from a long line of performance bred horses (her half brother was on the Swiss B team for Dressage). Good as Gold’s pedigree qualifies him for most main studbook registries, and we had the choice when we registered him of KWPN, Oldenburg NA, or Dansk Varmblod. We are very excited about Good as Gold, as he has the gaits, the scope, and the athletic ability to succeed in any discipline. He has an enormous amount of jump, and three great gaits as well. His first foal is due this year out of an imported Coriano mare, and he will have a good sized foal crop next year. I have spoken with the KWPN, and I believe that when he passes his stallion performance test, he will be able to have register A KWPN foals, and be considered “erkund” to the best of my understanding. His foals are also eligible for Oldenburg NA papers. He has had 2 full siblings which have main foalbook KWPN papers, and this year will be the third. His Oldenburg full sibling was a premium foal as well. The rules seem to change annually about the reciprocity of the studbook registries, and they can be very hard to understand 
Creme on Top seems lovely, he reminds me in a way of Good as Gold’s Oldenburg NA half sister Aida by Advocate who has the same elegant look and buttermilk buckskin color. We bred her to Corlando yesterday and fingers are crossed for a fantastic jumping very beautiful buckskin show hunter…
[QUOTE=Lauren Efford;4787136]
I have spoken with the KWPN, and I believe that when he passes his stallion performance test, he will be able to have register A KWPN foals, and be considered “erkund” to the best of my understanding.[/QUOTE]
You may want to double check with KWPN on that - in general, the Euro registries (or registries with a Euro parent) do not recognize the ISR 10 day test for full approval. In fact, I believe that only ISR/ONA and maybe AHHA (?) recognize that test.
If you mean reciprocity with Europe, I think only AHS and Oldenburg (GOV) have full reciprocity with their German counterpart registries when it comes to breeding licenses. I am not sure about KWPN - maybe one of the Dutch breeders can speak to this.
But if you mean reciprocity between one registry and the next, Oldenburg (GOV) generally requires that stallions licensed with another registry finish Oldenburg-recognized performance requirements - i.e., a recognized 30 day test for young stallions, or a recognized 70 day test for stallions age 7 or older (or the specified competition requirements). So a stallion that has done only the ISR 10-day test would not be allowed to sire Oldenburg registered foals (unless he is a young stallion that has been officially inspected and approved by Oldenburg stallion inspectors - and then his license will expire at the end of his 6 y/o year unless he has successfully completed an Oldenburg-recognized 70 day test or met the sport requirements).
As for KWPN, a friend of mine was told last year that the Dutch will recognize a stallion as Erkend only if he has been fully licensed/approved by a Erkend studbook (and apparently ISR/ONA is not considered Erkend).
Buckskin Warmblood stallions
Hi Down Yonder! To clarify, our intent is to do the 10 day test Fall 2009 (October) first, then on to the longer test that will make him Erkund with some of the other registries. At that point, from what I have been told, he will be “Erkund”. The rules are changing so fast that it can make your head spin, but what I understood from my coversation with the KWPN within the last few months is that as of the rule changes in 2009, once Good as Gold is approved by the OLD NA (after the 10 day test) he will be able to have Register A foals with the KWPN. His pedigree definately meets their specifications. I specifically questioned the KWPN about this, but I will make another phone call, as I certainly need to be sure of what is required as of the exact date and time of his licensing with the OLD NA after the 10 day test for “erkund” status. This has been an interesting process (raising a young warmblood stallion in this country) and a real learning experience. I am always open to new information
I have been told that a foal can only get KWPN section A papers if the sire is approved with one of the WBFSH ranked Associations on place 1-10. No matter what stallion performance test, all other foals if by approved or non approved stallions (which I find ridiculous as a non approved stallion does not have the same value as an approved and performance tested stallion!) are to go into their section with B papers. Since Old NA is not in the first 10 ranks of WBFSH, so I guess it will be book B papers the foals will get. If it would be the real Oldenburg Verband it would be A papers as they are in the first 10 rankings.
But I have seen that people do not care very much if you get A or B papers. So I would not worry over this.
The KWPN-NA does recognize the Oldenburg-NA studbook for what I know. The Dutch KWPN does not. They do recognize the German Oldenburg studbook but only if the stallions have a full approval by Oldenburg. Not if stallions are just able to registrate foals in the Oldenburg studbook.
[QUOTE=Lauren Efford;4787974]
Hi Down Yonder! To clarify, our intent is to do the 10 day test Fall 2009 (October) first, then on to the longer test that will make him Erkund with some of the other registries. At that point, from what I have been told, he will be “Erkund”. The rules are changing so fast that it can make your head spin, but what I understood from my coversation with the KWPN within the last few months is that as of the rule changes in 2009, once Good as Gold is approved by the OLD NA (after the 10 day test) he will be able to have Register A foals with the KWPN. His pedigree definately meets their specifications. I specifically questioned the KWPN about this, but I will make another phone call, as I certainly need to be sure of what is required as of the exact date and time of his licensing with the OLD NA after the 10 day test for “erkund” status. This has been an interesting process (raising a young warmblood stallion in this country) and a real learning experience. I am always open to new information :)[/QUOTE]
Well, if you planned to do the Fall 2009 test, you have missed it. 
And if KWPN considers a stallion Erkend after completing only the ISR/ONA 10-day test, then that seems to be a big switch in their philosophy.
[QUOTE=janderegelaar;4788823]
The KWPN-NA does recognize the Oldenburg-NA studbook for what I know. The Dutch KWPN does not. They do recognize the German Oldenburg studbook but only if the stallions have a full approval by Oldenburg. Not if stallions are just able to registrate foals in the Oldenburg studbook.[/QUOTE]
Really? I thought KWPN had moved to make the NA registry pretty much the same as the Dutch one regarding breeding rules. 
[QUOTE=DownYonder;4789895]
Really? I thought KWPN had moved to make the NA registry pretty much the same as the Dutch one regarding breeding rules. [/QUOTE]
No, KWPN-NA stallions now have the same status as the Dutch KWPN stallions and that was different before.
Ah – so stallions approved by KWPN-NA for breeding in N.A. are also considered approved by KWPN for breeding in Holland. IOW, they can sire Foalbook foals in either N.A. or Holland.
OTOH, the Erkend rules for stallions from outside registries are different in N.A. versus Holland. IOW – the NA branch recognizes some studbooks as Erkend that the mother registry in Holland does not recognize, so a stallion that is Erkend in N.A. can sire Register A foals in N.A., but not in Holland. Is that correct?
But I still find it odd that the Dutch give the same status to a stallion that has only done the ISR 10-day test as one that has done a Euro-type 70-day test! All this time, I thought the Dutch were pretty much the toughest registry around as far as recognizing “outside” stallions! Very interesting to know this!
I doubt that the KWPN-NA gives any recognition to the ISR 10-day test.
Historically the KWPN-NA did not recognize Oldenburg NA, RPSI and ATA stallions who have not done a 100-day test.
This organization goes years without licensing any NA-born stallions.
I think Thatcher was the last one and perhaps Idocus before that and Idocus is an older stallion, retired from Grand Prix international competition.
The licensing and approval process is daunting, not to mention meeting the qualifications to keep the approval. I don’t know of any other registry that culls like the Dutch for not meeting performance requirements and for not having enough offspring that meet the standards.
Buckskin Warmblood stallions
[QUOTE=DownYonder;4789893]
Well, if you planned to do the Fall 2009 test, you have missed it.
And if KWPN considers a stallion Erkend after completing only the ISR/ONA 10-day test, then that seems to be a big switch in their philosophy.[/QUOTE]
OOPS!! Is it really 2010 already <G>! The spring rush of breeding and foaling and craziness at work at the vet clinic has gotten to me already <VBG>
I will call the KWPN NA this week to verify, as I thought I understood all of the new rule changes as far as the OLD NA and the stallion reciprocity from our last conversation
Good luck, Lauren.
The rules have evolved so it is always best to get the latest info from the office.
Buckskin Warmblood stallions
[QUOTE=Oakstable;4790755]
Good luck, Lauren.
The rules have evolved so it is always best to get the latest info from the office.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, Oakstable…I thought I had the latest info (about 2 months ago), and I too was surprised that the KWPN would accept stallions as “Erkund” that were approved with the OLD NA through the 10 day test (I know that did not use to be the case)…but that is what I was told, for better or for worse :). I will confirm with them this week and let you all knowwhat I am told (I am thinking to get it in writing this time). I think I will go to Silvia, as that is not who I spoke with at the KWNP NA…it was someone else in the K’s office. It makes is so hard with all the rules changing every time we look around… Lauren
[QUOTE=Oakstable;4790452]
This organization goes years without licensing any NA-born stallions.
I think Thatcher was the last one and perhaps Idocus before that and Idocus is an older stallion, retired from Grand Prix international competition.[/QUOTE]
I think the last one was Olivier - Elizabeth Austin’s “Fizzy” - early this year.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;4790133]
Ah – so stallions approved by KWPN-NA for breeding in N.A. are also considered approved by KWPN for breeding in Holland. IOW, they can sire Foalbook foals in either N.A. or Holland.[/QUOTE]
Yes
[QUOTE=DownYonder;4790133]
OTOH, the Erkend rules for stallions from outside registries are different in N.A. versus Holland. IOW – the NA branch recognizes some studbooks as Erkend that the mother registry in Holland does not recognize, so a stallion that is Erkend in N.A. can sire Register A foals in N.A., but not in Holland. Is that correct?[/QUOTE] If the KWPN-NA recognize them, yes
[QUOTE=DownYonder;4790133]
But I still find it odd that the Dutch give the same status to a stallion that has only done the ISR 10-day test as one that has done a Euro-type 70-day test! All this time, I thought the Dutch were pretty much the toughest registry around as far as recognizing “outside” stallions! Very interesting to know this![/QUOTE]
As far as I know, the KWPN recognizes in Holland stallions from several German studbooks, even if they haven’t done the performance test.
Reason for that is: the KWPN does not recognize the German stalliontest and the offspring of these stallions have to do a performance (IBOP/EPTM) test before they can be registered in the main studbook. Not to speak about the veterinarian standard they have to match as long as the “outside” stallion does not match this standard or is not tested according to the KWPN veterinarian rules.
