Suggestions for the opinionated mare

[GPjumper]

I believe trying to beat it out of her escalated the problem rather than just quietly sitting through the tantrum and continuing on. They got into the fight with her and the trainer didn’t have the skill to end it.
As for breeding, that is not my decision to make. Owner doesn’t want to breed her because of these issues, but offers have been made to her with people knowing her problems.

If she’s in pain somewhere, there is no way to find it and we would be stuck “riding her until she breaks” anyway.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Stories like these just make me very sad. There is obviously something wrong. Whether it’s training or psychological or a disease or injury…
I would not send a horse like this along to be someone else’s problem. I would not breed it. I would not have it as a pasture pet. I would PTS.
There are far too many “good” horses in this world.

[GPjumper]

I will not advise a client to euthanize a horse especially when she is willing to spend the money to see if another management style makes the mare happier.

[Warmblood1]

I hope to God the mare isn’t bred until all issues are resolved, assuming they can be. She either has an underlying physical issue or an untrainable temperament. Risking either with a future foal would be negligent.

If the horse is still this way on a different property, I believe it’s more than barn and buddy sourness - barn and buddy sourness more likely secondary to pain. I would take her to a top vet clinic or university and keep pursuing diagnostics. Have the feet been radiographed?

[mmeqcenter]

Agreed.

If not “pain” for this horse, I expect it’s neurological (brain tumor, perhaps) or a severe hormonal imbalance.

[GPjumper]

Feet have been x rayed. They are fine. She scopes clean ulcer wise and was treated for hind gut to be safe and rule that out. nothing remarkable on bone scan. She’s been seen every 6-8 weeks by chiro/lameness specialist and had injections done when necessary.

She’s been seen by several top vets including New Bolton Center (owner thought a neuro issue) but NBC didn’t believe that was a problem.

[Warmblood1]

What joints have been radiographed?

[GPjumper]

I answered this above.
Neck/back/hocks/stifles/feet/fetlocks/knees.
Neck/back/all four lower limbs ultrasounded.
Muscle biopsy done, no evidence of DSLD.
Hair sample pulled and worked with nutritionist to sort out diet.
Ovaries ultrasounded. Uterus cultured/treated and a second culture done to make sure she was fully treated.
When I say there are no diagnostics left, I mean it without doing an MRI of the entire animal.

[luvmyhackney]

While I generally agree, this sounds like buddy sourness that just got out of hand and should be given an opportunity to be fixed, then if that didn’t work, I would PTS. Sounds like a nice mare except for this issue.

[mmeqcenter]

I vehemently disagree. We’ve had very different experiences.

[Warmblood1]

If you truly believe the owner has done everything possible to eliminate pain (not sure I agree), then why do you or the owner hate the thought of a good cowboy and wet saddle pads?

If it were me and I truly thought this was not a pain issue but a behavioral issue, I’d take the horse off the property due to the barn/buddy sourness and try to find someone with enough skill and technique to work through these severe behavioral problems.

[GPjumper]

The only ones I know of locally do not have safe facilities and will work a horse for hours with no water breaks. I’m sure there are other good ones but I don’t want to see a cowboy colic or injure the mare due to lack of common sense.

What other diagnostics do you suggest? I’m sure the owner would consider them for this mare.

The bloodwork from UC Davis came back negative for axion damage so they didn’t believe EDM was the cause.

[Warmblood1]

I would leave that up to the veterinary professionals. I haven’t seen the mare nor do I have enough information to give a reasonable answer to that. If the owner is willing to pursue diagnostics, then I think that would be the ideal route versus sending to a trainer straight away. It’s one thing to try to rehabilitate a sour horse, it’s another to try to rehabilitate a painful, sour horse. The painful, sour horse won’t improve and will only be further set back in their progress.

Once the veterinarians agree that diagnostics have been exhausted, I’d expand my search parameter and try to find someone who specifically works with severe behavioral problems, whether that be a cowboy or a professional in a certain discipline.

[GPjumper]

Exactly! I’m all for some hard work, but I’ve seen some of these local guys work in the round pen for 4+ hours in the dead of summer without offering a water break.

It’s one thing to work them through an issue. It’s never acceptable to torture them into submission.

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

@Warmblood1

why do you or the owner hate the thought of a good cowboy and wet saddle pads?

why send a horse to a cowboy who will likely do unsafe things like tie it to an unbreakable post or gallop it in a round pen for hours? Just send it to a good normal trainer. This is a NORMAL thing that they see all the time and can fix 80% of through changes in management and the other 20% through correct training and good riding skills.

Because I would never send a horse to anyone like that, period. Cowboy to me does not equate to some abusive hack.

[GPjumper]

As I have repeated in this thread : top vets have seen this mare at several different clinics. None can find a pain issue and we are out of diagnostics to run without doing a necropsy.

At this point, I WISH they would find something or have another suggestion.

[sascha]

@GPjumper

The only ones I know of locally do not have safe facilities and will work a horse for hours with no water breaks. I’m sure there are other good ones but I don’t want to see a cowboy colic or injure the mare due to lack of common sense.

Thank you on behalf of the horse <3

I’m struggling with a bit of a migraine so cannot go back and read the whole thing to check so pardon the repetition if this has already been addressed.

Will the mare do it on the longe/in hand? If so, and she’s not wearing a ‘could stop a freight train’ cavesson, do it. I’ve been helping someone recently who has a horse with a similar issue and it made a huge difference when I finally got smart and said, “I’m bringing you a dose of sucralfate every lesson and my cavesson is going to live in your barn for a while if it works.”

Huge change. We went from a horse that checked out and said no by rearing, spinning, and bolting several times per session to one that tried twice with the cavesson, failed, and then said, “Oh. Ok. I see there are new rules in place. What would you like from me?” Not many sessions after that he actually started meeting our eyes with very soft, dare I say thankful, eyes. It was like no longer being able to get away with freaking out and tantrumming dramatically set everything straight for him. “Ok. So there are boundaries and I have to stay within them and you are completely fair about them and will never ask me to do something I cannot do. Ok. Let’s get on with it. Pardon me while I relax.”

I’ve always said that a horse that understands boundaries is a happier horse and one that doesn’t is frustrated and unhappy. Usually, it’s pretty easy to set boundaries, but when one has been effed up (like your client’s mare and the horse I am working with) it can take a bit to find the right tool and person to set those boundaries so that the horse understands they are solid boundaries and that they will never be asked to do anything they cannot do physically or mentally.

[endlessclimb]

I think I’d honestly start by tying this mare on a blocker ring with a LONG rope, with some nice alfalfa to keep her company. Start right at the edge of her comfort zone, and slowly increase the distance. If/when she pulls back, wait till she’s done and put her back where she started without any theatrics on anyone’s part. When she’s standing quietly, untie her and bring her in. Go back to ground zero with this horse.

I’m thinking this is “spoiled horse” behavior because she does it when being ponied around. If the horse is so painful they can’t walk next to another horse without mind-flipping pain, I would think/hope they would have found it with the diagnostics so far.

[Warmblood1]

Then I guess I’m confused as to what you are actually asking - supposedly, there is nothing to be done diagnostically with this mare. Suitable trainers aren’t near you but I guess sending the mare further away isn’t an option? Anyways. I wish you the best of luck.

[GPjumper]

I’m asking if there is anything we could have missed that hasn’t been ruled out or any suggestions on how to ride through this.
I do not know of suitable trainers near me that would be willing to take on this issue. (Hence me putting in our location in case anyone had suggestions)

I’ve also heard of random things, like Texarkana posted above. That has given us some things to think through.