The mare lunges and ties quietly. She knows that when she’s on a rope, she’s on your time. I feel like we need to find a way to translate that under saddle.
I feel she is very dominant and will take advantage/has learned to be intimidating.
Lunge her under saddle, with a rider?
Then transfer control to the rider with the center man as backup.
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This isn’t how horses brains work. I really suggest doing some reading on equine behavior.
She isn’t being intimidating, she is screaming at you that she doesn’t want or understand what you are asking. She has lost all trust in you because you aren’t listening. When they don’t think we can understand them, they scream louder. You are intimidated because you don’t know why she is acting that way. You need to show this horse you are listening. Explain what you want. If she can’t do it, she either doesn’t understand, is in pain, or can’t physically do it.
There is an instagram page called Featherlite horsemanship I really recommend going and watching some clips. She works with horses like this all the time and explains and shows how to change the way you handle the horse to get to the point you are working together.
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OP have you looked into PSSM2? I feel like I sound like a broken record on these posts suggesting it, but it is quickly becoming recognized as much more common than initially realized….it and MFM are relatively newly discovered and many vets are still clueless as to the symptoms of muscle myopathies. It took 5 vets for my mare before one suggested it🤷🏻♀️
I honestly find it quite surprising how many people are suggesting that this is a training/ behavioral issue. I thought the horse world was coming around and understanding the inaccuracies of this old-school type mentality. Horses don’t think in the calculated way we do…they just display how they feel.
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I think this is a tiny bit over simplifying.
There’s another one: “Horse would rather not be with you/do your bid, and would instead rather be back over there doing their own thing.”
The rest of it, with it being trust based, I don’t inherently disagree with.
Not every horse is inherently pleasant to deal with. Not every horse has a good work ethic out of the box. That’s ok, every horse is its own individual. But they’re not all the same, and some are pretty not-fun to work with.
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If you don’t think buddy and barn and gate sour is a training issue, then I don’t know how anyone would manage to fix it.
It’s not a physical thing, it’s a mental/training thing - it’s anxiety based, coupled with a horse who won’t move forward off the leg.
Really whether it’s barn, buddy, or gate sourness, it all boils down to a horse who doesn’t believe that forward is non-negotiable.
We’ve all dealt with horses that were originally fine but learned horrible habits from novice handlers. One swift correction from an experienced one and the problem goes away. Horses absolutely do do things to their benefit when there are no repercussions for the behavior. That’s not a dig at the horse - it’s nature to do things that are advantageous to [g] you.
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I say this as kindly as I can, but honestly, if you (g) do not know how to rectify the barn/buddy sourness, I wouldn’t recommend taking on the task on your (or the client’s) own, even with good advise from the internet. I say this with personal experience correcting severe behavioral issues. These situations escalate quickly, as I’m sure you know, are dangerous, and fixing them requires a tremendous amount of tact, foresight, timing, bravery, and consistency. She has learned how to evade the situation already and has many wins under her belt, making the situation even harder and more dangerous to rectify.
I would do some research, or have the owner do some research, and reach out to trainers is greater proximity to you, call them, let them know what’s going on, and ask if they have the experience or ability to correct this type of problem. They may be a colt starter, a western rider, an english rider, what have you. There are many types of trainers out there, some specializing in these types of issues. Those are the trainers I’d target. You may have a lovely hunter jumper trainer down the road but that does not mean they are equipped for this type of thing.
That said, I’ll stop saying things you likely don’t want to hear. I really do hope the mare works out.
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Agreed. It’s honestly a problem I will not attempt to fix myself anymore. My personal horses are never allowed to get away with it, so it’s not come up. Once it’s there, it’s there - and one of the most dangerous habits to resolve, IMO.
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She is not being asked to do anything except walk pleasantly away from the barn.
This is not my mare. She boards at my farm. I am not intimidated since I am not stuck sitting on her.
She has, literally, spun/balled herself out of the arena, off a ledge, into a ditch line, through brush before unloading her rider in a tree and galloping back to the barn. If she can’t get you off spinning, she does spins/rears until you come off. The rider doesn’t have a whip or spurs, no martingale not even a contact when she starts. She is literally just being asked to walk 100 feet from the barn (in any direction)
Hair samples were run and muscle biopsy done. This isn’t PSSM2.
None of the trainers I know are equipped to deal with this behavior. the only types who would touch her would be the type to torture her. We are looking for other trainers. (We have been but most are headed to Florida right now hence my comment in the OP about sending her to a trainer)
If she’s fine on a line, and fine being tied wherever, but is not ok with no human on the ground, then start there.
Rider up, horse on lead line. Lead to and from the barn calmly, but not too far.
Take lead line off, human still present and next to horse. Walk to and from the barn calmly.
Human present, ride horse away from human, just to the edge of where all hell might break loose. Ride horse back and forth between human and mental-edge until relaxed. Human should have a line on their person in case it gets out of control.
And on and on and on. Do this until you can locate a trainer to send her to.
At no point would I push this horse past her limit with the current rider/trainer situation - it’s clear no one can/wants to handle it.
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I used to respond in depth to these threads, out of the best interest of both the horse and the owner. I’ve certainly been in such positions with a difficult and NQR horse, and empathize greatly.
I learned over the course of the years to read between the lines in these threads, especially when extremities are thrown out like “all diagnostics have been done”.
Sometimes people start a thread and phrase their words in way that aim to present one option: in this case, that the mare is being behavioral and nothing can be done diagnostically to help. That is what OP is saying and that’s the only answer they want to hear from other posters.
Which is why I always ask for a video. Text may say one thing, but the way a horse moves doesn’t lie.
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I have asked what diagnostics could be left, but didn’t get any responses. It is also very hard to get video overnight when we don’t have any of the behavior.
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FYI…not a reliable test if it comes back negative. I’ve had a long conversation with Dr. Finno at UC Davis about the reliability of the test. If it is positive it is usually reliable. If negative, you cannot rule out EDM. My gelding had a negative test…his patho results were severe bilateral brainstem degeneration from EDM. Just don’t use that as a “we ruled out EDM because the pNF-h test was negative.” Only reliable test for EDM is after the horse is euthanized and they run the pathology. Unfortunately.
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Thanks for saying that. I thought I was just being impatient and easily irritated this morning.
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Ok. So, I may have used this next thing fairly recently with a hypervigilant large and in charge of all things happening on (and off) the property type of horse, BUT, the horse has to give a moment’s warning. Get off as soon as the business starts (I know, I know, don’t get off, stay on and win the “fight.” Whatever, I’m too old to get broken any more and it often doesn’t work with these types anyway unless you’re willing to beat them/wet saddle blanket them which I wholly disagree with), so get off. Immediately do whatever ground work it takes to get the horse’s attention back on you. If that means riding with a cavesson on the horse and a longe line in a fanny pack, do it.
Once horse is listening again, get back on as though nothing happened. When the business starts again, get off again. Rinse. Repeat.
Do not be angry, more of an “ok let’s get your attention focused and try again when you’ve come back to earth/are thinking about me” and repeat for-freaking-ever. Every time the same thing. Eventually (half a dozen rides? half a year?) the rider will start to feel when starting to hop off the horse resets the horse’s brain. Then eventually the horse will start to reset its own brain as soon as the stirrups are dropped. The it may just be a halt that resets the horse.
I’ve had this work … doesn’t mean it will work for everyone, doesn’t mean it will work for the horse in question, but I’d try it IF the horse signals far enough in advance that the rider can hop off and get to work. If the horse doesn’t signal ahead that a tantrum is coming, I’d probably not ride it honestly. BTDT with the persevering with a non signalling horse and it severely screwed with my confidence for many years. Would not repeat. Would say, sorry, this horse needs a different career for a while, maybe forever.
Adding to the above - be careful to take a moment to breathe and be very business like after dismounting. Anything done to further upset the horse can lead to a horse that flips its shizzle when the rider goes to dismount. It’s not punishment. There is no room for emotion. Learnt that lesson the hard way as a teenager when tasked with a difficult horse that probably shouldn’t have been put in my custody at that point in my career!
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This is the longest shot ever, but had a mare that was “Evil”. Her issues were on the ground, not under saddle. Very food aggressive and pushy. Would charge people entering her stall or trying to catch her. I was about to euthanize her when my vet tech suggested pergolide. (We had tried all the usual diagnostics and behavior modification). She had noticed over the years that “evil” ponies had radical behavior changes for the better once treated for cushings. Tried it and within 10 days I had a completely different horse. Could be worth a shot.
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You don’t know what a blocker ring is if you think it can give arthritis. I can pull the rope out by hand. The long rope is so she doesn’t pull the whole thing out and head back to the barn.
It’s hands-down the safest way to tie because they can’t get hurt.
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A couple of things caught my eye in this thread
You mentioned the horse got injections when it needed them. This suggest that issues HAVE been found. What was injected and why?
You say the horse is fine on the ground, but not under saddle. This makes me less likely to think it is strictly a barn/buddy sour issue.
What happens when you lead the horse to the problem spot? What about leading in full tack? As mentioned above, what about leading horse with rider? Does the horse flip out if it goes out with another horse, or only alone?
If it really is a buddy sour issue, you might try changing the environment. Get her out 24/7 in a large herd. Many horses with buddy sour issues will improve if they get out of a small herd and into a big one.
As far as diagnostics, have you had a good acupuncture person out. They can do a body scan and sometimes pick up stuff other methods don’t.
Pics and videos of this mare would be great. Don’t need to be riding pics, but walk and trot in straight lines and circles. If possible hard and soft surfaces and up and down incline (I know, that’s a lot, but it is useful) Pics from front, side full body standing naturally.
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Owner isn’t coming out today. (She has work) We did separate the mare and put her in one of the smaller paddocks. It is about 20 feet from another paddock with her herd. You would have thought the world was ending. Pacing, running the fence line, pawing the gate etc.
The vet is coming back the sixth so we are going to do chiro/hormone level tests/cushings tests.
for those asking about injections: she has had her hocks and stifles done with prostride.
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If this isn’t barn sour at it’s worst I don’t know what is. Your boarder has my sympathies and I wish you the best in finding a kind and competent trainer who can get her past this.
You never said when it all started or how long the boarder has owned this mare but obviously she was a decent ride and agreeable for most of her years ridden?
It could be she hurts somewhere when ridden or that she has some neurological issue but from the description of what she does and the fact that she does it in the same places and only when asked to leave the barn area( every single time) ? Pain just isn’t that selective.
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