Suggestions for the opinionated mare

[beowulf]

I agree, and I think some criticism on my behalf is fair. I did respond uncharitably above, and that likely changed the tone of responses following.

To OP and the owner: Most of us on this forum are lifelong learners. In our pursuit of knowledge, we come to COTH from all walks of life with all kinds of perspectives. Thrilled to find likeminded people in a space that encourages free exchange of ideas and education, we often stay. Nowhere in the world is there such a concentration of decades of experience, knowledge, and insight of the horse world — and sometimes new folk can run afoul of this. Long time posters have generally seen it all, and when you’re here long enough it can be easy to not give new posters the benefit of the doubt. How many times has one of us spent a half hour of our time putting thought into a careful reply only to have it summarily dismissed?

The owner of this horse has gone beyond what most have, clearly - the horse has been seen by a vet with no answers. That’s very frustrating. I hope both the owner and OP understand the criticisms are not directed at them or their lack of trying (because clearly they’ve tried). Those of us that have been around horses long enough learn that every behavior has a reason and every misbehavior has a trigger. Some of us even have the unfortunate experience to learn that a stone we previously thought was already overturned and ruled out wasn’t ruled out at all - custom saddles that don’t fit, hooves with NPA or poor balance, a soft tissue injury that wouldn’t show up on X-ray for obvious reasons… Sometimes we can get so caught up in trying to fix the behavior we don’t take a step back and ask “why? Why is this behavior present and what am I doing that might facilitate it?”

I’m not saying that’s the case here, we have an owner that is clearly invested in answers. The BO has written a post from her own perspective with notes of frustration and the suggestion the horse is being uncharitable. That’s her perspective having lived it. Now, try to see it from the horse’s perspective.

[candyappy]

@beowulf

I don’t profess to know all facets of pain but I do wonder if some pain related trigger-stacking is at play here. You’re right pain isn’t selective. It could be there is some minor pain that the horse can manage under threshold until a new stressor or trigger is added - in this case the trigger could very well be separation from the herd.

Sometimes the stoic horses have the worst herd bound behavior and they are doing so because they are masking a high pain. Stoic horses tend to be high-functioning individuals and removing them from the herd makes them feel vulnerable enough that they lose the plot.

Anything is possible and if she associates leaving the barn ( being ridden) as the cause of that pain long enough, I can see it escalating to where they are at.

The one thing I don’t see in @GPjumper 's posts is the mare being resistant to saddling? If being ridden caused that much pain I can’t see her being easy to saddle. Unless I missed it.

ETA: Thank you @TheMareStare for coming here and sharing with us first hand. There is always something we can learn from others experiences and yours is a new one for me.

I do hope the trainer you have lined up is successful in breaking through her fear and anxiety as I do believe that is her issue.

Please keep us updated and stay safe!

[TheMareStare]

She has had three different Countys, a hastilow, a Veritas, a tad coffin and now she’s in an Albion.
She is very communicative so we know when she gets snarky about being saddled something is amiss.(hence the username) She hasn’t been.

New trainer has come up with plans A-F depending on how this goes. He does not want to start with her until her blood work comes back. IF something comes up, he wants it treated before we attempt to work through issues. (As he should) Until then, we will be riding out with friends.

The frustrating piece of the forum is that I feel members don’t read responses etc. my BO mentioned her being seen by several vets, including NBC, and assumed that she was lame because of getting pro stride injections in her hocks/stifles.
My vets come from a different school. They believe in injecting a joint and reducing the inflammation/soreness before bong changes can occur because those are permanent.

I’ll keep you all updated with his methods when we start working in a few weeks.

[beowulf]

I don’t see where anyone missed that she had been seen by vets. The question was whether “all things” were looked at, if vets had looked under the right stones, so to speak.

If us COTHers had a dollar for every time someone came onto this forum and swore their horse vetted sound per vets, then uploaded videos of a pissy, toestabbing, toe dragging horse with clear bilateral lameness, well, we’d probably have enough chump change for a PPE or two.

Vets are human too. Not every vet is good at detecting lameness and not every vet is good at reading radiographs either. There are vets who specialize in holistic approaches and there are vets who specialize in lameness evaluation. It doesn’t make them any less of a vet if they can’t see subtle lameness, it may be their specialty is something else like treating aging horses, detecting early signs of metabolic diseases, reproductive health, etc. No one vet is perfect at all veterinary aspects, it is why there are so many specialties out there and why second and third opinions in difficult cases are always advisable.

[rockymouse]

This sounds a whole lot like kissing spine, in my humble and unscientific opinion.

Late to the thread - apologies if this has already been discussed.

[carman_liz]

So basically a saddle isnt an issue or a rider on a lunge since she knows someone is holding another control point on her? If it is pain this won’t help and it is my completely novice idea…

What about putting a REALLY good sticky rider that the owner trusts on her…in super grippy breeches or chaps…in a western saddle? I know at least when I was riding and younger I would feel more secure and able to stick n stay on thru some shi+ with a western saddle and full chaps on. Idk maybe it won’t help, again just a random “oohh this may make it harder for her to get a rider off” thought. Either way she has my sympathies and I hope someone can work it out of her.

I know you said no cowboys, but can she get one to come to the mares barn so she is present to make sure they are not evil to her by chance even once a week? Good luck and jingles!!! Oh and Happy New Year!

Eta…sorry I did not read where the owner came on here and said someone is lined up for Feb. @TheMareStare please keep us updated I am hoping for a great outcome for you and missy mare!

[TheMareStare]

I get it. This is why I got multiple vets involved. (Including the nutritionist) I’m also blessed that I can afford this/had insurance/am living within driving distances to 7 major vet clinics.
I realize that out west, the nearest clinic can be 5+ hours away.

[skydy]

@GPjumper and @TheMareStare came here looking for suggestions as they have done everything they can think of. Hopefully someone here who lives in their area can recommend a “cowboy” or other rider, since the only cowboys they know are abusive.

If there is a video of the mare on the longe (no doubt no one wants to sit on the horse to recreate the dangerous behavior) there’s a chance that someone here might notice something. It’s happened before.

Good luck and stay safe!

[TheMareStare]

We haven’t ridden with anyone since September, (work has been killing me) but she was definitely more agreeable with more horses around.

[TheMareStare]

I know they spun her in circles hard and chased her with a whip. I actually witnessed her falling. (Hence why she came home), so the more you try to spin her, the more panicked she becomes and then when you try to let her out of the circle, she’s bolting out of straight fear. (Which IMO is scarier because she’s lost all self preservation at that point)

I hope this makes any sense, but she has never felt like she is in a blind panic doing this. It’s always felt very calculated on her part. I never feel like she is willing to kill us both, she just wants me out of her way. And I want to thwart this before she is willing to kill or hurt herself to get what she wants.

[EmilyM]

I tried to send you a PM but I think it started a new topic or something crazy. I have a cowboy suggestion in PA who is terrific and doesn’t torture the horses. PM Me and I can give you his info. Apparently I’m not able to figure out PMs

[TheMareStare]

Yes, this is why I pick my “battles” very carefully with her and did so much medically. I will never get through to her if I am trying to force submission. (Incoming dressage rant) I actually hate the word submission because it really should be a desire within the horse to be a partner. Submission implies one is dominant over the other and I’m a firm believer it must come from mutual respect. Trying to force submission is what has made this problem more difficult for her mentally as she is always gearing up for battle rather than just voicing displeasure.

[foggybok]

@TheMareStare

The frustrating piece of the forum is that I feel members don’t read responses etc. my BO mentioned her being seen by several vets, including NBC, and assumed that she was lame because of getting pro stride injections in her hocks/stifles.
My vets come from a different school. They believe in injecting a joint and reducing the inflammation/soreness before bong changes can occur because those are permanent.

As one of the people who questioned the injections, I did read all the posts. The reason I questioned it is there should have been a reason for the injection. If you are reducing inflammation and soreness before you get permanent changes then there IS a problem. A horse doesn’t have to have bony changes to be lame. She was apparently sore enough to warrant injections, so she was sore, i.e.“lame”.

I see you mention riding out with friends. If she is OK in this environment, then the needle tips towards behavioral again. I had asked that question earlier but did not get a response.

I did have a Fjord at one time who became increasingly herd bound like that. He’d been pushy with his previous owner and was big and strong. I had him down with a trainer for a while and he lost his marbles and became very herd bound. He would pull away from the interns working him and run back to the barn. He tried to climb out of a stall at a show when my other mare was out working. When I brought him back home, he was still very herd bound. The thing that broke him was moving the two of them to a new place and putting him out in a big herd (and she went into a different one). He was back to his old self. I’ve noticed horses in small herds get extremely attached to single other horses and if that horse is not there, they lose it. Your BO said she gets upset about having the right horses around her. Is it possible to get her out with a big herd?

[TheMareStare]

She received injections and has since flexed sound. (Several times) At the time, we injected in an attempt to rule them out as part of the behavior issues. She IS the sensitive type. 0.5/5 was the score, so not quite a lameness. Vet only suggested injecting to rule them out which is why we went PRP over steroids. That, obviously, was not the issue.

The mixed herd is of retirees, so no that is not an option I am willing to risk. As it stands, she is difficult to catch she gets so herd bound. She is out with several other mares right now. (4 total in the field) and I usually can’t catch her unless all the others have been brought in.

[luvmyhackney]

If I was looking for a considerate western trainer to send my horse I would 100% trust Jim Thomas in Pittsboro, NC. He is phenomenal with the difficult ones.

[sascha]

@TheMareStare

I know they spun her in circles hard and chased her with a whip. I actually witnessed her falling.

I know I’ve already suggested this once above, but I’m going to reiterate - Please have her gone over with a fine toothed neuro comb.

[Marla_100]

Important Clue**
Does she do this when riding out with others???

[GPjumper]

The owner responded. She has been seen by NBC for neuro.

She has not done this riding out with others.

[TheMareStare]

I have already stated she was seen by one of the top neurologists in the country. Please read my detailed post. This is NOT neurological.

[sascha]

Ok. Good luck.