Haven’t read everything yet but just wanted to say my mare ultrasounded clean three separate times on her ovaries by different vets.
I did end up spaying her and she had two abnormal ovaries… granular cell carcinoma on the right side and the ride ovary was attached with scar tissue to the right abdominal wall.
Again three separate ultrasounds showed nothing… so so very happy I ended up spaying….
Not saying at all that your mare is the same but to just mention that ultrasounds of ovaries clearly don’t always show what’s going on.
You said she has generally been okay with other horses riding out. Have you tried riding with a group in the ring? Just go out with a couple of other horses and walk around staying together, if that works slowly ask her to walk a short distance from the others OR ask for more work (a little leg yield or some other movement) starting with a few minutes and slowly increasing the expectations, stopping before she starts her meltdown.
If you can do this for awhile she might learn that the arena isn’t a bad place and she can settle down.
Still reading thru this thread… I posted above to your BO about my mare spay situation. Happy to offer more info if you would like.
I also believe, your mare while maybe painful somewhere, is screaming at you. That said she needs to be shown she can say no in a much more functional manner… standing spinning etc are not acceptable (as you are of course more than aware!) and you do need someone willing to show the horse a different way to say no.
I used to be this person… age, injury, and health issues now have me using someone else. I know someone I would trust to ship my horse to and will help you learn to work thru it because even if he gives your horse the tools you will need to show the horse you can then use those tools. Is he in Florida right now yes… is he cheap no… is he impressive as shit absolutely. (Color me floored when this guy, I can’t call him a cowboy, he’s a horsemen.) showed me ground work that connected to dressage riding and can ride passage and flying changes… what I’ve learned from him is how to break down my in hand work for piaffe into even smaller bites the horse can process better )
Anyway, I’d still check her ovaries and hormone levels as my mare was perfectly healthy and ultrasounded fine but clearly was not and she was in tremendous pain. But even when they feel good again (which I hope you can achieve) they do need the behavioral aspect redirected.
@TheMareStare so I’ve finally finished this long thread!
Just wanted to mention if you can find anything medical which is probably in there somewhere and after my mare I realized just how little we know about mares and their reproductive systems.
The horsemen I would recommend is in Florida for the winter but he summers in NYS and I am probably/trying to coordinate a clinic at my farm (northern NJ so not far from you) within the next month or so… more then happy to have you come audit so you can see him sort some horses.
Couple of Examples of what you will see that we want to work thru is a horse who literally is terrified if he hears a gun shot… like hits walls he gets so scared. Also a cold backed horse who is fine for us to ride but during the winter with the changes he sometimes explodes after/during the change. Hoping to help these horses find more confidence during these situations. The approach is to help the horse with small steps they can process and help them cope thru these moments… and while I’m understanding what he does and getting better myself he is so much better at it and I want these horses to have the best experience that I can hopefully follow up behind.
Again just wanted to extend the invitation as you have done so much for your mare and I’m sure at this point it all seems so overwhelming (at least I felt that way with my mare).
I have not read this entire thread, but have a couple of thoughts.
First, a couple of supplement suggestions. I know some will snigger, but they are cheap to try and they have helped my mare.
The first is Evitex, which is a chasteberry supplement. It’s primarily aimed at regulating the pituitary glad, but it helps with hormones in general. Game changer for my mare (better than Regumate). And I would only use this particular version - I have tried others and they are not as effective.
The second is SynChill pellets (not the gel). You can give them daily and then also before a ride. They are not the usual magnesium overload-type supplements, but again really help my mare get her mind in the game.
Second, if the owner is willing to send the horse further away (New England), I can recommend a trainer who is wonderful at rehabbing “problem” horses. She is an incredible combination of super kind but also very effective. Endless patience. Totally honest. Cannot recommend her enough for exactly this kind of situation. And if she concludes that it’s not fixable, she will tell you.
I have skimmed through most of the thread but didn’t read it in detail.
It’s really difficult to know sometimes if there is a weird serious hidden pain issue that is making the horse lash out … or does the horse just have that bad of manners that it’s been allowed to get away with.
Sounds like the owner is really, really doing due diligence with making sure it isn’t pain.
But … even if there is some pain there, is that an “excuse” for the mare to have bad attitude? In my opinion, no. (So I’ll kind of skip the pain suggestions because it obviously sounds like owner is checking all that out thoroughly.) Honestly, I think this horse has some serious TRAINING problems that need to be addressed by TRAINING. (And not more diagnostics.)
The mare needs someone that understands horse behavior. What she is thinking and why is she thinking that. Mare has learned she can dump people when they are in the saddle and that will be a very hard habit to break and it’s going to take a lot of time.
Issues are NEVER only under saddle. If there are serious disrepect issues under saddle like she has, they WILL be there on the ground as well.
It is NEVER a good idea to get into a fight with a horse. The human will not win. Ever. The horse is 1,000+ pounds of muscle. You’ll never force them to do anything. And I’ll bet that these experiences made this mare’s issues 100x worse. She remembers the fight, and she’s going to darn sure well protect herself from that happening again.
Long gone are the days of “cowboying” a horse. And anyone who still does it (like these local fellows you have) are not willing to learn better ways to do things that accomplish things better.
So, for the horse, she is getting into a mental situation where her brain is flipped into fight or flight. Sounds like that flip switches pretty fast into the ride. The ultimate goal that will need to happen with her (which will NOT be easy) will be figuring out how you can (1) flip the switch back to get her thinking again instead of reacting (2) or not let the flip switch in the first place. [that will likely be very hard to achieve with her].
Ground work is where it starts. Giving her some pressure on the ground so you can manifest some of those behaviors and start working toward making her better. Because right now, sounds like there are zero tools once the rider is in the saddle. And that’s why she just mentally shuts down and doesn’t respond to anything until she acheives getting the rider off.
Contact Phil Haugen. He’s not going to take the horse b/ he doesn’t have the time (and he’s booked out about forever) but he does offer virtual training (for a fee, as he should) and/or he may know of trainer worthy of taking this horse on. And I get that he’s a western guy but that doesn’t mean that training can’t be transferrable to anything else, including English. Good training is good training, no matter what gear you put on the horse’s back.
I had the pleasure of going to one of his clinics last year and I wish I would have met him years ago. (So yes, I sing his praises wherever I go!! It was that great.) It really changed my perspective of how I do things with horses. He speaks a lot about how the horse perceives things and I think that is really critical to understanding how to work through issues like this, if you can understand what the horse is thinking.
Right now, what she is doing, is going into full reactive mode. And that’s what leaves the rider helpless. You can’t gain any control over the horse when they are in that reactive mode. You have to develop a system (through time and millions of repetitions, seriously) to be able to flip the switch back to thinking in their brain. And that “switch” is different for every horse!! So not something that is easy, or quick, but there are ways to go about it.
I sort of agree with you about this, however I would like to expand. I have certainly seen horses who behave like this, no problem at all on the ground, but will act like this horse under saddle. The explanation is simple. Many times these are horses that have some element of fear (or barn or buddy sour). These are the horses that don’t ever want to be in front on a trail ride. They want someone to follow. So on the ground they are fine. You are there, they happily walk next to you and get their comfort from you. Once you are on their back, you are behind them. Sure, you are guiding them, but in their mind they are in front and it makes them nervous. You can see this played out in a horse that refuses to enter water, but if you get off and walk casually through, it will follow. I’ve seen a lot of horses that just are not comfortable in front of a group or alone.
Would be interesting to see if the owner of this mare could ground drive the horse out in the area where she gets nervous. This horse would very likely benefit from some confidence building sessions like playing leap frog on a trail ride and other exercises that help buddy/barn sour and timid horses.
This transition period is where I’m at with my young mare. She’s fine to do anything when I’m next to her or lunging her. When I’m on her back, she’s MUCH more nervous about everything. It’s a work in progress, and with my particular mare I expect it to take a year or better before she puts the pieces together.
And THAT, in my mind, is a ground work issue. They should trust you no matter where you are relative to them (beside them, behind them, on top of them) and they should have confidence when you send them forward ahead of you, or even if you are 10 feet away from them.
So in this example, if you cannot SEND them through the water ahead of you (and the horse will only follow you) then it’s a ground work issue that can be improved with training. Which will transfer benefits while under saddle!
Precisely the type of horse that most benefits from the confidence building that ground work can provide. (over time … over thousands of repetitions … certainly not going to be an instant thing)
I can send my mare through whatever. The fact that I’m standing there on the ground with her, anywhere, is the comfort. It does not translate to under saddle.
Stuff that wouldn’t even make her blink on the line gets a 10x bigger reaction when I’m on her back.
For example, we were walking through a field and there was a patch of mud. If I were on the ground there would have been no issue at all, zero. But me on her back? She spun.
Another example, nothing is spooky in the indoor when I’m on the ground with her. Even if I’m all the way on the other side of the arena, 100’ or better. On her back, there is a corner she doesn’t care for, and gives the side eye to.
This is not true for some horses. I have a weirdo. Bushwhacking? Fine. Lead on trails that have my heart in my throat? Fine. Hack out alone? Fine. Play on/with all manner of obstacles? Fine.
But, there is occasionally something that comes up that is impossible in her mind. One example was a tunnel obstacle with water in it. She damn near got dangerous in her refusal to even try it. This is not a young nor inexperienced horse. This is not a horse that jumps for inappropriate behaviour when she doesn’t understand/doesn’t want to do something. I hopped off and ‘self loaded’ her through the obstacle with someone waiting about 10m from the exit to catch her. No problem. Hopped back on and the problem was solved.
It’s not a ground work issue. It’s a riding issue that no amount of ground work will solve.
Given what you just wrote, have you ever tried dismounting just after a spin and then leading past/ through the spin problem? (I think you said she bolts so that may not be possible.)
Alternatively, get off before the spin hits, lead her past the spot deliberately turning her opposite her spin direction when you’ve gone past, then calmly walking back and doing it again with lots of praise, til you feel she’s relaxed. Then get on and try it, keeping her slightly bent opposite her spin direction. If it works, throw a party as Jimmy Wofford says.
Same thing in the ring where she side eyes, except as you lead her through the corner or whatever, halt and wait for a count of 20 or so, with pats and maybe a (small) treat. then walk on as if nothing is unusual. Repeat a couple of times. Then under saddle. with the halt and a neck pat if she’s good, going on to just walk through the monster’s lair. I’m sure you’re doing this, but keep her straight through the area so she can’t bulge her shoulder and do what she wants.
You’ve probably tried all of this, but it’s all I can come up with. Best of luck.
?? But you used a ground work exercise to flip the switch back (changed her mind from reacting back to thinking) so that you could be successful with what you were asking.
Good job.
Circling back around to what I posted above, if you can find a way to control that “switch” in their brain and get them back to thinking when they go into reactive mode, well, there you go.
Even the most experienced aged horse can have a reactive response to something. The challenge is figuring out what you need to do to get them out of that reactive response.
Aren’t horses funny, I have a TB gelding who treats me like his emotional support human, looks to me for all the answers. It does translate under saddle, but he much prefers we approach scary things on foot (maybe so he can leave me in the dirt if said scary-thing attacks??).
Meanwhile, my mare – who I raised since she was 4 months old – would much prefer me to be on her back when there is a scary thing. I think she thinks she can take on anything and it’s easier to have me out of the way and on her back.
She’s doing fine, I can normally sit her spins (it’s usually a prop-spin-3 stride bolt before I can gather my shit together and get her stopped… she’s super quick about it). I can 100% convince her to go through, over, around, whatever the spin provocateur was under saddle, that’s not an issue - the interesting part is that she doesn’t even think about it if I’m on the ground, anywhere within sight. It’s like I’m the herd leader on the ground, but she can’t put it together when I’m on her back that I’m still there.
Same with the arena corner. I can get her into the corner just fine undersaddle even with the side eye, and she gets better throughout the ride - it’s just interesting to me that on the ground it’s like the corner is not a problem at all, ever.
Yeah, but that doesn’t translate to a horse that is always able to overcome fear/distrust while being ridden.
Ground work doesn’t always solve ridden problems. Yes, sending her through the obstacle allowed her to trust the obstacle was not dangerous and allowed me to hop back on and do it once she gained trust of the obstacle.
You stated above that if you can send a horse through whatever, then there shouldn’t be ridden problems, but there are. If being able to send my horse through something because I had done all the appropriate ground work was equivalent to erasing ridden issues, I would not have had to dismount and send her through it. Ground work and ridden work are two different things in the minds of many horses.
She’s just young, and not the most intuitive horse I’ve worked with. She’s a good natured critter, which is half the battle - she just has “blonde moments” as I like to call them.
ETA: The spins happen in what feels like out of the blue, no preparation is possible for them. “We’re ok, we’re ok PROP SPIN GO.” Then when I bring her back around she takes a look, then goes right through with no fuss. I swear to god it feels like her brain short circuits for a second.
They should trust you no matter where you are relative to them (beside them, behind them, on top of them) and they should have confidence when you send them forward ahead of you, or even if you are 10 feet away from them.
