Supplements - A waste of money?

[Guilherme]

A supplement that actually alters the metabolism of a horse is a drug. Before you drug your horse you should have a reason you’re doing it and that reason should be supported by a SOAP

Subjective
Objective
Assessment
Plan

In selecting the drug you should know what it’s properties are, what it does, how it does it, and the proper dosage.

Then when you start you should have a record of what you had before the drug was used and how physical or mental state of the horse has changed. By “record” I mean a “physical record.” Since most of us have smart phones it’s easy to create a photographic or video record. Even a text record is pretty simple.

The minimum for any drug is that it is efficacious (for the condition it’s being used to treat) and is safe in the proper dosage and manor of use.

Drugs that have gone through a formal approval process (like Adequan and Consequin) have been proven on both counts. Any other drug that has met the same standards would be the same. I don’t know of any formal approval process of any kind for “supplements.” The industry that makes these things has fought regulation “hammer and tong” for years to ensure that such a process does NOT EXIST! So when you use one of these unregulated substances you are are a veterinary experimenter using your horse as a “guinea pig.”

If folks are cool with using their own horses as experimental animals then that’s fine. I’m not.

G.

[Scribbler]

There are several questions to ask about any supplement beyond a basic VMS.

Does it have actual proof of effectiveness? Most dont.

So then you need to move on to other questions.

What are the active ingredients and are they hiding behind scientific or alternate names,?

Does it contain active ingredients at significant levels and how can you verify that?

Does it work on your horse, and how can you verify that?

Is there a cheaper way to get the same active ingredient, for instance buying bulk magnesium or other minerals?

Is the product being marketed with scare tactics, or exaggerated claims?

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[scrbear11]

@Guilherme

A supplement that actually alters the metabolism of a horse is a drug. Before you drug your horse you should have a reason you’re doing it and that reason should be supported by a SOAP

This is a really interesting, and very valid, perspective.

[outerbanks77]

@kashmere

I think you’re bang on, there - and in your particular case, it sounds like you have effectively used a dietary additive to manage your horse through a tricky time period in a way that supports her being healthier and happier. That’s a huge win! Honestly, I would count usage like that as a little bit different than typical supplement use. Your horse has a very specific reason for needing something to help her be calm, and you’ve found something that helps.

Thank you. I was reacting to Palm Beach’s statement “Calming supplements - makes me laugh. They are a useless crutch for poor horsemanship. You change behavior with training”

[Ghazzu]

@Guilherme

A supplement that actually alters the metabolism of a horse is a drug. Before you drug your horse you should have a reason you’re doing it and that reason should be supported by a SOAP

Subjective
Objective
Assessment
Plan

In selecting the drug you should know what it’s properties are, what it does, how it does it, and the proper dosage.

Then when you start you should have a record of what you had before the drug was used and how physical or mental state of the horse has changed. By “record” I mean a “physical record.” Since most of us have smart phones it’s easy to create a photographic or video record. Even a text record is pretty simple.

The minimum for any drug is that it is efficacious (for the condition it’s being used to treat) and is safe in the proper dosage and manor of use.

Drugs that have gone through a formal approval process (like Adequan and Consequin) have been proven on both counts. Any other drug that has met the same standards would be the same. I don’t know of any formal approval process of any kind for “supplements.” The industry that makes these things has fought regulation “hammer and tong” for years to ensure that such a process does NOT EXIST! So when you use one of these unregulated substances you are are a veterinary experimenter using your horse as a “guinea pig.”

If folks are cool with using their own horses as experimental animals then that’s fine. I’m not.

G.

Cosequin is not listed as a drug. To my knowledge, there has been no NADA documentation submitted for it.
Its manufacturers, however, have done creditable amounts of research.
You may notice, however, that they are careful to make no label claims for treatment or prevention of disease, as those are prohibited for supplements which are not approved animal drugs.

[JB]

@Guilherme

A supplement that actually alters the metabolism of a horse is a drug.

If that’s the case, then you’re including a whole lot of regular nutrients in the classification of “drug”. How any animal eats affects his metabolism, for better or worse. And, there are drugs which have an affect that nutrients don’t, that doesn’t involve the metabolism.

So, there must be a different definition for what you’re aiming for (which I understand).

[Ghazzu]

@scrbear11

Originally posted by Guilherme View Post

A supplement that actually alters the metabolism of a horse is a drug. Before you drug your horse you should have a reason you’re doing it and that reason should be supported by a SOAP

This is a really interesting, and very valid, perspective.

I routinely point out that it doesn’t matter whether it’s a pill, a powder, a root, or a tea, if something administered to an animal has a pharmacologic effect, it is a drug. (sometimes the dose is the dividing line)

Some people appear to think that if it is of botanical origin, or is a naturally-occurring elemental substance, it is necessarily either safe or effective.

Foxglove and selenium are obvious examples to the contrary.

[2DogsFarm]

@Bluey

I will say, we can’t make rules of thumb about horses when we look at the individuals.
Every horse is who it is, not what we think they should be according to their species.
Especially with our domestic horses we manage their lives so closely.

AMEN!

I view supplements as necessary only if the horse in question shows a need for something more than my basic feed program that includes T/O 24/7 on my admittedly mediocre pasture, along with 1st cutting orchard grass hay fed 3X daily as much as they will consume per feed. Add hay to next feed if they make All Gone, less fed if there is wastage.
Grain is whole oats in small amounts - 3# for the horse, 1.5# for the pony, handful for the mini - totals are pounds fed in 2 increments AM & PM.
“Supplement” is BOSS - fed only for the effect on haircoat - all 3 are soft & shiny year-round.

I had a 27yo TB who looked like 10 on this regimen for 5yrs after bringing him home from a boarding situation that suited him except for lack of turnout. At 25yo I added 1g bute daily @ vet’s suggestion.
My 17yo WB ended up needing a high fat additive (Nutrena Boost Empower) added in small amounts Fall thru Winter to keep him from getting a bit ribby.

Current 19yo Hackney Pony, 17yo TWH & 5yo mini are all looking good on the above regimen - none needing added supplements.
Which is not to say I would not consider adding something if one shows a need.

[MissAriel]

The FDA’s definition of a drug:

Drug. A drug is defined as: A substance recognized by an official pharmacopoeia or formulary. A substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease. A substance (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body.
(bold mine)

This is what is the dividing line between drugs and supplements. Drugs are regulated by the FDA and require approval before they can be sold. They are required to identify which diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment or prevention of disease they should be used for, and even which patient populations should and shouldn’t receive the drug.

Supplements don’t require approval to be sold, and there is no requirement that they establish either safety or efficacy, however the FDA can (and does) investigate and remove products with claims that are in line with the definition of a drug. As Ghazzu pointed out, this is why Cosequin and others have to be very careful in their language regarding what the supplement is used for.

Drugs can also influence more than metabolism (“any function”). I know where Guilherme was trying to go, and I agree with the general premise, but this definition is a bit more precise.

[SuzieQNutter]

I am not in America.

My mum has worked with horses all her life and so have I.

Mum started off in England. I have only worked in Australia.

I read about injections into hocks, etc on this forum, done more than once.

I read about all giving supplements.

I read about horses that show lameness and the people get the vet, get injections and want dobbins to be sound immediately.

Nope not that I know of in my life time or the places I have worked. Pepper evented and showjumped. I bought him rising 7 when I was 15.

If he was lame for any reason you just don’t ride and tend to it. I remember one year that we got his sister in for me to ride as he was lame. She didn’t work out. He came sound, so she went back.

I grew up. He taught my husband to ride. He was sound into his 30s.

Vinnie I bought as a 13 yo. She had evented. She was lame because of a farrier. We went to my farrier and went dead lame. He said because she had not been shod as a pigeon toed horse. She became sound and was ridden. She was a companion for Pepper for another 11 years.

We now have an ex school horse. Saved from the doggers. Ridden by the husband until lost interest. Doing 2 to 3 lessons a day including jumping as a school horse. A tb in his 20s. He is sound and still being ridden.

2 other tbs being ridden. All 3 are sound.

I have worked at a trail ride place, a dressage school and a riding school.

It always amazed me at the dressage school that the boarders horses had supplements. The school horses who worked every day did not.

I have never had or seen horses be given an injection other than to sedate, vaccinate or for colic.

[Another_Poster]

@Bluey

We used to think that bolded also, but had to learn over decades that is not quite so simple.

Some horses, more than we think, are stressed when living with others.
Especially the older ones that feel they have to keep everyone in line or the ones that are being picked on if not the boss.
Those are many times obviously relieved when they have alone time.

An older horse trainer friend and I were talking about just that as he sold down to one horse only.
I asked him how he was doing alone and said he seemed very happy with all the resources to himself, never nickered or fretted about any other horse.
He goes to help neighbors work cattle, where his horse sees other horses at times, but doesn’t care about them.
We also had other horses that really stressed without other horses around.
Horses come in all kinds, up to us to help make their lives comfortable, for who they are, not what we think they should like or do best.

We had a new horse that, once turned out with others, spent all time driving them to water in the pens, then back out to graze, all day and night long.
Our older horses were getting footsore, all that walking was too much for them, plus they were hardly getting enough time to drink that the boss would again drive them out.
We put that horse alone across the fence and guess what, he didn’t care and went on to graze alone.
The others, his herd, they would stand by the fence, waiting for him to come tell them what to do, barely going off a bit to graze or drink and back to the fence.
After a while, we sold the boss horse to someone that kept horses by themselves.
He was very happy there for years, with his own stall and pen and pasture and not having to worry about keeping his herd guided the way his instinct told him to when with them and in charge, a big source of stress now gone.

I will say, we can’t make rules of thumb about horses when we look at the individuals.
Every horse is who it is, not what we think they should be according to their species.
Especially with our domestic horses we manage their lives so closely.

Too bad it took us so long to learn that.
We could have kept some nice horses we sold if we had not insisted they had to live with others in a herd, but been a little more flexible.
Best to always question what we so firmly believe.
Some times, in some situations, it just may not be quite like we think it is.

This is actually quite a fascinating topic to me. I don’t want to hijack the supplement thread too much so someone let me know if I should make a spin off thread. I just moved my horses home last Spring. I only owned one mare at the time who was always last on pecking order or middle if turned out with weanlings/yearlings. Just not a dominant mare. Her dam ruled the pasture, though.

Got given a pony gelding who was always mid to last on totem pole. Decided to keep a friends mare who was always last on totem pole. Chaos ensued in the pasture. My mare appeared to have no idea what she was doing now being the ‘dominant’ mare.

After that little herd of 3 had been together for 6 months, I incidentally picked up another mare who was, without question, the ruler of the pasture. She was much older and ruled with a quiet but firm approach. She gives A LOT of warning with pinned ears, facial expressions, body language, threatening to kick, small nips before she resorts to actual kicking or biting. It was so fascinating to watch.

Feeding time was always a bit of a rodeo. After a few months, they have mostly settled into their roles. Boss mare stands by gate. 2nd mare waits about 20 feet back. Last mare and pony wait far away.

It was 3 horses thrown together who had always been mid to last on totem pole and it appears they all had no idea what they had to do but knew that someone needed to be the boss. It made me think it was very similiar to dogs who don’t have a pack leader.

I am loving having them at home where I can watch out the window. They seem to spend a good amount of time together but I also see them go off individually to their loafing area or water or hay.

Perhaps I’m over anthropomorphizing them but it appears they are all calmer now that they have established a very defined hierarchy. There was a ton of bite marks and scraped up hides for a couple months. Way too much for my liking. Now it seems they understand their places and are reminded in more gentle ways before one has to resort to actual biting and kicking.

My mare is crazy if she’s kept in a stall. Explosive, unpredictable, just wild. Living out, she’s much more even keeled.

[Scribbler]

@Another Poster

This is actually quite a fascinating topic to me. I don’t want to hijack the supplement thread too much so someone let me know if I should make a spin off thread. I just moved my horses home last Spring. I only owned one mare at the time who was always last on pecking order or middle if turned out with weanlings/yearlings. Just not a dominant mare. Her dam ruled the pasture, though.

Got given a pony gelding who was always mid to last on totem pole. Decided to keep a friends mare who was always last on totem pole. Chaos ensued in the pasture. My mare appeared to have no idea what she was doing now being the ‘dominant’ mare.

After that little herd of 3 had been together for 6 months, I incidentally picked up another mare who was, without question, the ruler of the pasture. She was much older and ruled with a quiet but firm approach. She gives A LOT of warning with pinned ears, facial expressions, body language, threatening to kick, small nips before she resorts to actual kicking or biting. It was so fascinating to watch.

Feeding time was always a bit of a rodeo. After a few months, they have mostly settled into their roles. Boss mare stands by gate. 2nd mare waits about 20 feet back. Last mare and pony wait far away.

It was 3 horses thrown together who had always been mid to last on totem pole and it appears they all had no idea what they had to do but knew that someone needed to be the boss. It made me think it was very similiar to dogs who don’t have a pack leader.

I am loving having them at home where I can watch out the window. They seem to spend a good amount of time together but I also see them go off individually to their loafing area or water or hay.

Perhaps I’m over anthropomorphizing them but it appears they are all calmer now that they have established a very defined hierarchy. There was a ton of bite marks and scraped up hides for a couple months. Way too much for my liking. Now it seems they understand their places and are reminded in more gentle ways before one has to resort to actual biting and kicking.

My mare is crazy if she’s kept in a stall. Explosive, unpredictable, just wild. Living out, she’s much more even keeled.

Herd dynamics are fascinating. I think that submissive horses forced into bring boss can be unpredictable because they don’t have the calm confident sense of command necessary to be boss.

Don’t we see this enough in workplaces where someone without good leadership skills gets promoted to manager and can’t maintain effective boundaries so can end up getting anxious or frustrated and over reacting and blowing up at people?

A herd with a good boss mare has very little actual screaming yelling kicking biting going on.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@beowulf

Magnesium… I think a lot of it is a placebo. A better alternative if you need calming supplements is turnout. Cheaper, and way better for the horse. None of my horses have ever needed magnesium or had a deficiency, and I’ve had horses of all types of nutritional needs.

Obviously this is anecdotal, but I swear Quiessence makes a difference on my mare in rehab. I forgot to add it to her grain one day, and she was fully out of control during the handwalk. I was barely able to get her back to the stable with us both in one piece.

I wondered what the hell happened, since she’d been relatively ok until that point on her handwalking-only life, then I realized I forgot about the supplement that day. I started testing it for days she ate the Quiessence and days she didn’t (and also with the barn personnel handwalking her so it wasn’t just my own anticipation!). It’s not so drastic that she appears sedated when she’s on it, but the difference in her tension and “freak outs” is undeniable. So anyway, she stays on it. (It’s also marketed to help cresty horses, which she is…I figure it can’t hurt).

Other than that, I feed an array of supplements recommended by my vet for ulcer prevention, topline support, joint support and natural vitamin E (with the idea to help her muscles repair, but a lot of this seems ok to keep her on generally once she’s better). It’s expensive and likely not necessary, but I trust the vet to have a good idea of what could help.

[tabula_rashah]

My 3 working/ competition horses get salt, flax, Outlast and Vit E/Sel as necessary. The one that’s the very easy keeper gets Magnesium too and the one that came into heat when I added a gelding to the mix (and wouldn’t go back out of it) gets raspberry leaf so she’s not so gross all the time. I do use an Adequan series yearly.

Now my retired mare who has Cushings and can’t tolerate Prascend- she’s on a boatload of wing and a prayer things and it seems we may have found the holy grail combo.

[Mango20]

@Scribbler

Herd dynamics are fascinating. I think that submissive horses forced into bring boss can be unpredictable because they don’t have the calm confident sense of command necessary to be boss.

Don’t we see this enough in workplaces where someone without good leadership skills gets promoted to manager and can’t maintain effective boundaries so can end up getting anxious or frustrated and over reacting and blowing up at people?

A herd with a good boss mare has very little actual screaming yelling kicking biting going on.

I worry about this a bit. I have the perfect boss mare who keeps my other three in line with just mean looks, it seems. I’ve never seen her go after the others, and only seen them give her the highest respect. My #2 can be mean to #3 & 4 but it’s kept in check by her deference to #1. #1 is 26 years old now, and I’m worried that when she dies, #2 will become a tyrant as the new #1.

[Another_Poster]

It was so interesting to first watch the older mare assert dominance just by pinning ears or a look. Or merely turning her hindquarters in their direction. She gives so much quiet warning.

The now 2nd mare gave no warning before chasing the others off chomping on their hindquarters.

[IndysMom]

I had a gelding who was herd boss. I never saw him actually bite or kick ever-but he must have had the best body attitude because none of them ever challenged him either. One look was enough to keep them in line! I could have used him when I was a student teacher for eighth graders!