Survey on Problem Behaviors in Horses

[Scribbler]

I did a consult on Project Horse with an equine behaviorist who had academic credentials, was herself an advanced rider, and came recommended by an intelligent young coach that I know. The behaviorist observed me with the horse and pointed out some useful things. She did not train the horse or really coach me, the second step would have been an action plan. It was useful, it was not woo, it was not coaching or training as usually done.

A lot will depend on the inherent skills of the person.

I think she also does dogs. I know the coach who recommended her does dogs too.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

That sounded really bizarre. To get a horse to perform, trainers have to first fix their problem behavior.
Good trainers know how to modify and shape behavior somewhere between the carrot and the stick. They have impeccable timing and know how to release and reward for the right behaviors.

So what would a behaviorist action plan be for a horse that refuses to be caught? I mean, a trainer cant teach it to perform until she catches the horse from the pasture and she’s going to have to modify and shape some trust issues to achieve that.

[Scribbler]

It’s surprising to me how many quite accomplished riders, coaches and performance trainers don’t have much in the tool kit for behavior problems or ground work.

[skydy]

@vwkoch

If a horse is bucking because of a sore back, any good veterinarian can help, but how many people with horses that pace, weave, bite themselves, etc., have gotten those problems resolved by a trainer OR a vet?

The behaviors that you describe are usually the result of a combination of environmental factors and sometimes predisposition to those behaviors. A change of environment can often help.

Self mutilation in horses can sometimes be treated by management and sometimes not. Aggression in stallions can also, sometimes, be diminished by changes in environment and/or management.

It would be fascinating to see if a behaviorist could fix a die hard cribber, when environmental changes had no effect.

From the 1990’s https://www.vet.upenn.edu/docs/default-source/research/equine-behavior-laboratory/93equineu.pdf?sfvrsn=ce5ee0ba_0

[VodkaRedbullx2]

I am seeing that more amd more lately.
I don’t want a parelli debate, just a note that but with the fall of that empire I’m seeing less groundwork knowledge of the general horse owner and the rise of crunchy woo no boundaries snowflake training. I mean, at least they understood pressure release then. Now we ask for consent! Jk.

[sascha]

@vwkoch

there are VERY few horse trainers who understand the science of modifying behavior

Please. Stop. Take some time to think about how you can work WITH the people that spend the most time with horses instead of continuing to alienate them.

@vwkoch

Behaviorists are people who deal with behavior problems (and are hopefully properly trained to do so).

Problem #1, even before the “we’re better than vets and trainers” attitude is this. That needs to be fixed in order to gain credibility with the masses and not just with those that are looking for any port in a storm.

@vwkoch

pace, weave, bite themselves, etc., have gotten those problems resolved by a trainer OR a vet?

I know several personally.

@vwkoch

Hopefully, I’ve answered some questions

You’ve definitely answered some questions!

Here’s an excellent thread to read for information on how not to come across to educated horse owners and trainers.

Thoughts on "The Traveling Horse Witch?"

I am curious if anyone is familiar with The Traveling Horse Witch? She’s all over Facebook and a blog I follow is singing her methods praises. From what I gather it’s a combination of body work and exercises, with a lot of focus on the thoracic sling. But it’s all I know because you have to sign up to get access to her methods. Which I am considering! I’m definitely intrigued. I’d love to hear if anyone is familiar and any feedback. Feel free to dm me if you don’t want to post publicly. I’m e…

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@VodkaRedbullx2

So what would a behaviorist action plan be for a horse that refuses to be caught?

You teach the horse to come when it is called. Seriously. Been there, done that.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@VodkaRedbullx2

I am seeing that more amd more lately.
I don’t want a parelli debate, just a note that but with the fall of that empire I’m seeing less groundwork knowledge of the general horse owner and the rise of crunchy woo no boundaries snowflake training. I mean, at least they understood pressure release then. Now we ask for consent! Jk.

So many riders board their horses out these days, and they just never receive much instruction on how to handle horses on the ground. It reminds me of the old story of the kids’ pony that would stop and refuse to go forward on the way out of the barn every day. Every day the stopping point got closer to the barn. The kid would say “pony tired” and put the pony away. Gradually, it got to the point where the pony wouldn’t leave the barn.

There’s a lot of that sort of thing going on today. Pony Club for adults is a really necessary thing.

[pluvinel]

@Eclectic_Horseman

Pony Club for adults is a really necessary thing.

I believe it is called the “Old People’s Riding Club”…aka OPRC.
https://www.oldpeoplesridingclub.com/

Not sure how much traction the club has gotten, but the need was recognized a few years (+20?) ago. It used to be called Old People’s Pony Club until the real Pony Club said the name was trademark infringement.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@vwkoch

why horse owners are not using behavior specialists (problems aren’t bad enough?) and what they’re doing instead

Umm… it’s called a trainer?

In all seriousness, I didn’t know such a thing existed. Generally speaking, when we have issues with our horses we turn to our vets and our trainers.

Hmm.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@pluvinel

believe it is called the “Old People’s Riding Club”…aka OPRC.
https://www.oldpeoplesridingclub.com/

Not sure how much traction the club has gotten,

It seems to only exist in a few states. Excellent concept though some may find the name off-putting.

[SuzieQNutter]

Dog trainers will tell you they have to teach the human rather than the dog.

Horse trainers will tell you, you have to teach the rider.

Most horse problems are caused by the rider not by the horse.

The first thing these behaviourists need to learn is ‘It is never the horses fault.’

This survey seems to be based on the fact that the horses are at fault.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

I’ve been thinking about this, and a veterinarian who is certified in equine behavior may fall between the cracks in terms of client needs.

Some horse owners really DO want woo-woo. Herbal supplements, animal communicators, weird types of body work, crystals and aromatherapy, etc. (I know there are vets who dabble in some of this due to client demand.)

Other clients (usually more experienced horsemen) are the complete opposite and shy away from anything that might be considered in the least woo-woo. Give them a vet and a trainer and they’ll solve it if it can be solved. Or if too much time and money is involved the horse will be moved on to a different career.

So it might be a harder sell than you’d think. As in the examples I gave above, if the regular vet and trainer can’t solve it, then the odds are low that the problem can be solved. And why alienate your current vet and trainer?

[skydy]

@vwkoch

There is already an animal behaviorist specialty, but horse owners aren’t using these specialists the way dog owners do. The purpose of the survey (as I understand it) is to find out why horse owners are not using behavior specialists (problems aren’t bad enough?) and what they’re doing instead (if they don’t know specialists are available). In other words, what do the specialists need to do to encourage horse owners to consult specialists for problem behaviors? Do they just need to advertise their existence, do they need to educate owners about how specialists can help resolve problem behaviors, would it help to offer courses on how to prevent problems, etc.? For example, many people do try to resolve problems without looking for physical or medical problems, and even if a veterinarian is consulted, vets not trained as behavior specialists may not know all of the possible medical reasons for a particular problem behavior. Therefore, a horse may suffer unnecessarily because of lack of specialist care. No one wants that outcome, so it’s important for the specialists to find out what they need to do to encourage horse owners to consult with them. Currently, we’re in a kind of vicious cycle. There are few equine behavior specialists because there is no market for them, but because there are so few, people don’t even know they exist — and may have a hard time finding one. We need to solve this problem so that horses get the same behavioral care dogs are currently getting. If anyone has any suggestions, I’ll be happy to pass them on to Dr. Doherty.

I linked an article here, written in 1993 by Katherine Houpt VMD PHD, and Sue McDonnell PHD, earlier in the thread.

Sue McDonnell is the founding head of the equine behavior program at University of Pennsylvania’s New Bolton Center. She has been consulted regarding very problematic issues in T.B. breeding stallions. https://paulickreport.com/news/bloodstock/hes-very-much-improved-spendthrift-farm-takes-steps-to-manage-bolt-doros-aggression/
Has D. Doherty consulted with the people at the New Bolton Center? They, no doubt, have a good deal of research of the type Dr. Doherty is looking for.

Not being able to catch your horse is a basic issue that most experienced people can solve.
As I mentioned before, stall walking, weaving and other stereotypies can sometimes be managed by changing the horse’s management and environment. Again, most vets, trainers and other experienced horse people know this.

Equine behavior studies have been ongoing for years at New Bolton. People just don’t use behaviorists for common training issues.

As for donating to new equine behavior study, I think that the New Bolton program would be a better use of peoples money, since they have been at it for decades.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Way back in the dark ages when I was way too poor to pay for training my horse I dove into my books about training and riding. Then I tried things. A lot did not work for that horse, but if I persisted I eventually got the idea of how to proceed so stuff did not get worse.

I LOVE reading equitation/training books by horse people who have ridden seriously for over 60 years. I LOVE reading equitation/training books by ex-cavalry men, who if they were cavalry officers could end up riding hundreds of different horses in a year.

But even so it was a HORSE that taught me how to deal effectively with horses when I could not afford lessons or a trainer, my 5 year old Anglo-Arab with just three weeks of training after he had been gelded (he still had the gelding scabs), and I just had trail riding experience. Everything I read was applied to the knowledge that my blessed saint of a horse taught me.

THANK YOU Hat Tricks. I could not have had a better teacher.

Consult with a horse behaviorist? Ah, no. If I have a question my riding teacher and I discuss it, then I flip through my mind and often find the answer, that I got from a book from someone long dead. In fact my riding teacher has let me take the lead in dealing with some of her problem lesson horses because my riding teacher has learned to trust what Hat Tricks taught me and the fact that I read all these books by long dead cavalrymen.

But then I got Hat Tricks in 1970, I was not rich at all, so I HAD TO learn it all by myself by LISTENING TO MY HORSE! When I listen to the horse the horse often communicates with me about what the problem is and gives me hints on how to solve my problem (since usually the problem is with ME (or previous riders), not the horse.)

[SusanO]

I really don’t think that I would use an equine behaviorist. Not that I know everything - I learn new things everyday. But there are so many resources available these days - both online and in person- that have a lot of horse training experience that has been gained from a lifetime of real life and mentors. As far as stereotypic behaviors - I learned the hard way that I don’t want to own a horse with those issues. I had a gelding that self mutilated and stall walked/ weaved to the nth degree. Never again. Really reactive horses that have a lot of stereotypical behaviors - you can change their environment to reduce their stressors but you cannot change the way that their brain is wired. No consultant is going to change the way that their brain is wired. It takes trial and error to see what sets the horse off and what helps it relax and get out of the claustrophobic mode. Each horse is different and you can’t force a round peg into a square hole. Studies are not going to help you - you need to see what works with that horse and if it is suitable for what you want to do with it.

I am not a big NH person and I really don’t like PP or Clinton Anderson but I have watched videos from other ones that have given me some valuable insights into my horse’s behaviors. CA is way too rough with the horses but he gets horses that have gotten dangerous behaviors from their owners. So those people need help and when your horse wheels around to nail you on a regular basis I don’t think clicker training will help.

My big love is dressage and it is just training the horse. In logical methods that are hundreds of years old. You would learn more from a mentor that have been training for years or clinics or even online classes these days than a horse behaviorist. Because the good trainers already understand horse behavior. You have to understand to be successful.

And I don’t think that someone with a degree in animal behavior really knows that much more than someone that has successfully trained horses for a long time. You can’t get that kind of knowledge in an academic system in a short time.

[vwkoch]

Let me begin by saying that I am not a behaviorist, so anyone who thinks I’m trying to build myself up by tearing down others is just wrong. Secondly, if I have a child with schizophrenia, I don’t go to a teacher for help, or even to a family practitioner. I go to a specialist (psychiatrist or psychologist). It is not “dissing” teachers or family practitioners to say that they are not the best source of help for mental problems. Trainers are not behaviorists, and behaviorists are not trainers. If you want to teach your horse dressage, you go to a trainer, not a behaviorist. If your horse has a stereotypy, you should go to a behaviorist, preferably a vet behaviorist who can prescribe drugs if needed. If a horse is bucking because it feels good, you lunge it before you ride — trainer territory. If it’s bucking because it has a sore back — vet territory. If it’s bucking because somebody screwed up its mind by punishing it for bucking because of a sore back, you’re getting into behaviorist territory (because you can, in fact, sometimes change the way the brain is wired).

Can trainers do appropriate behavior modification? Certainly — which is why vets use them to help implement behavioral treatment plans. However, they have to have appropriate training, which doesn’t happen by osmosis. The Karen Pryor Academy has a 6-month certification program for dog trainers, and their teachers (trainers) can work magic with behavior modification. You don’t have to take a 6-month course, or even get certified, to learn the basics of behavior modification, but a good trainer has more tools in the toolbox than just “pressure.” Training principles are the same for all species, and the KPA does teach about other species than just dogs (but imo, you need to read horse body language, too, to be really good), so they are an option for formal training in behavior mod. I know there are also horse trainer certification programs, but I don’t know enough to recommend one. With trainers, as with behaviorists, anyone can use the term, so there are good and bad ones out there, but a trainer who understands and properly uses the scientific principles of behav mod will, for example, know how to teach a horse to come when called or how to use clicker training to get a horse to stop kicking (and no true behaviorist ever blames the animal).

Cribbing is a good example of a behavior that could use more research funding. We still don’t have all the answers, but we have more than we did in in 1993. Dr. Houpt is a vet behav specialist, and Dr. McDonnell is a non-vet certified behav specialist, and if they wrote an article on cribbing today, it would be very different from what they wrote in 1993. Another benefit of using a certified behaviorist is that they keep up with the scientific advances in understanding behavior problems. New Bolton is one of the few places where people can consult with an equine behavior specialist, but we should have more than just one referral center. The purpose of Dr. Doherty’s survey is to see how we can expand the market for such services. Also, we need more than just one person doing equine behavior research. Donating to New Bolton will fund their research, but donating to a funding organization will fund more than just one person. Dr. McDonnell was actually on the board for Morris Animal Foundation that recommended which studies to fund — but we’re only funding one study a year because it takes $20,000 to fund a study, which is 1000 donors of $20 each, and so far (over several years), I’ve had 7, most of which are friends of mine, not horse people.

I am beginning to think it may be possible that there will never be a healthy market for equine vet behaviorists. Horse owners often aren’t bonded to their horses the way dog owners are, and behavior problems are different when the animal lives in your house. If a dog with separation anxiety is tearing up your house, and you don’t want to euthanatize it, you will go to a behavior specialist. If a horse with separation anxiety is whinnying and pacing in its stall, you ignore it. I hope I’m wrong, and that suffering horses will eventually ALL get the help they need, but there are still suffering dogs, too, so maybe we can’t solve all the problems. I’m not going to stop trying, though.

[Scribbler]

We have multiple coaches, trainers, and vets coming around our big recreational self board barn. Nevertheless I am constantly amazed how much trouble people get into with new horses, whether that’s a returning rider with their first horse as an adult, or a fairly skilled ammie or low level coach buying a young horse.

I got into trouble with my own horse about 13 years ago now and made her ring sour. No one including my generally excellent coach had the right suggestion, everyone was “ride her through it.”

The mess that created made me fall back on myself and my own horse sense to try to correct it. The final light bulb moment came to me when I was attending an Andrew MacLean clinic (not with my horse). I took something he said, applied it, and it really helped. The problem will never go away completely but is now about 70 per cent resolved if I’m strategic about it.

I also had a useful consult with a behaviorist on a project horse who verified my sense the horse was afraid and shutting down, not calm in certain situations.

My current coach has a psychology degree and has been incorporating behavior considerations into her lessons with success. She had me do a month of Gastrogard on ring sour mare and it really helped. So she sees vet issues too.

Many of us, especially us one horse ammies get into an interpersonal dynamic with our horse that we can’t see beyond. Horse behavior problems are very often human problems, now or past owners, or stable management problems. Having an extra set of eyes can be a big help. I feel that most coaches come to a lesson prepared to do the usual walk trot canter work on whatever sequence and are not going to switch to spending say 20 minutes on being quiet at the mounting block or dealing with an anxious eye.

I’m really picky about my horse care team, so obviously I wouldn’t continue on with a practitioner that came recommended by the wrong people, or who seemed like an idiot to me. Just as with any skill set, there’s the skills and then there’s the extra analytic ability and intelligence and intuition and subtlety, that makes a difference whether you’re a vet or a body worker or a trimmer/farrier or a saddle fitter or a coach or a trainer or a behaviorist.

I look at many of my barn buddies having issues with their horses, and I can see them misreading signs, doing the wrong things to solve problems, or not even seeing how problems are connected. I feel like most of them could benefit from a behaviorist analysis, and that includes adult re-riders, skilled ammies, low level coaches, juniors, and even the track people who have horses here in winter. Obviously I don’t say anything, unless asked, and even then I find it hard to help people change their behaviour outside of their own limitations.

Because I’ve had good luck with behaviorists and the ideas have helped me solve problems, I’m well disposed to the idea. But I don’t think they can necessarily be mass produced. There aren’t that many people who have psychology degrees and then do grad work in order to work with horses, and are also skilled riders and trainers outside of school. I feel like having one in our metro area is a huge bonus.

[dr5627]

@Scribbler

The final light bulb moment came to me when I was attending an Andrew MacLean clinic (not with my horse). I took something he said, applied it, and it really helped.

I’m curious what it was that helped?

[Scribbler]

@dr5627

@Scribbler

The final light bulb moment came to me when I was attending an Andrew MacLean clinic (not with my horse). I took something he said, applied it, and it really helped.

I’m curious what it was that helped?

He talked about horses generalizing and said on average it took about 9 repetitions of an act for a horse to generalize to new situations (whereas people can often generalize after one).

Somehow at the clinic I realized I had been teaching my mare that the ring is where we fight, and no matter the eventual outcome she left with the memory that we fight rather than we go around nice

I decided to leave the arena gate open and just trot in and out during our trail ride, loop back, in and out. I did 3 sets of trot in and out 3 times, so 9 reps, and followed up on subsequent days. I waited until she was warmed up and forward. I gradually spent more time, but got out before she reacted badly at all. If she got stoppy we just went out and came back in. It was important to over ride the old idea that we fight in the ring, and to get out before she started to get anxious and defensive. At this point it didn’t matter how long we stayed in or how much we did. I trotted in and out to give her momentum.

Then really important afterwards to make sure I never tried to ride through her anxiety. If she has a meltdown in the arena because of other riders etc we just leave.