Survey on Problem Behaviors in Horses

[vwkoch]

Even a vet not knowledgeable about behav medicine could work with a good trainer (trained in behav mod) to resolve behav issues if they consulted with a behaviorist. With the technology we have today, long-distance consultations can work quite well. However, a local vet does need to be involved (for a vet consultant) because it’s illegal to practice if you don’t have a local license.

Also, it took two mentions of Andrew McLean before my brain kicked in, but he is a good behaviorist and he does have a training course that issues a diploma in equitation science, intended for trainers, vets, etc. It’s pricey, and I don’t know much about it, but it is training specifically for horse folks, and it can be done online (again, thanks to today’s technology). Again, I’m sure there are others, but nothing jumps into my mind right now.

[Montanas_Girl]

@vwkoch

Also, we need more than just one person doing equine behavior research.

We already have “more than just one person” doing equine behavior research in this country. I’m not sure I could even count them all. They just don’t call themselves behaviorists. They are exercise physiologists, nutritionists, reproductive physiologists, geneticists, etc. by training, but research, especially in equine science, is highly intertwined among the disciplines.

[Edre]

why horse owners are not using behavior specialists (problems aren’t bad enough?) and what they’re doing instead

We do. We work with trainers.

what do the specialists need to do to encourage horse owners to consult specialists for problem behaviors

We do. We work with trainers.

Behaviorists are people who deal with behavior problems (and are hopefully properly trained to do so).

This falls under the traditional purview of a trainer.

Ideally, there would be a market for equine veterinary behavior specialists

Good trainers are in high demand.

there are VERY few horse trainers who understand the science of modifying behavior. People (including some trainers) are, indeed, usually the cause of the problems, and part of a behaviorist’s job is to educate owners.

If this is how people try to promote/raise awareness/encourage using animal behaviourists, this probably explains why people dismiss the idea. Trainers are often among the (if not the) most trusted reference horse owners have. A good trainer, a good vet, and a good farrier make up a team of support for most horse owners. I would gently recommend reconsidering if making condescending, antagonistic remarks about trainers is beneficial to your goal.

[vwkoch]

I think part of the problem here is agreeing upon definitions. If I define equine behavior research as investigating things like weaving and cribbing, and you define it as physiology research, we’re going to be talking past each other. If I define behaviorist as someone with advanced training specifically in treating behavior problems (especially things like weaving and cribbing), and others define it as someone who trains horses, we’re going to be talking past each other. Also, just in general (not in response to you), if someone is unwilling to admit that there is such a thing as a bad trainer, we’re definitely going to be talking past each other. I approached a trainer the other day who was beating a horse because it wouldn’t take the requested lead. I suggested that maybe it had a lameness problem. Her response was “he knows what I want — he just won’t do it”, which to me is a CLEAR signal of the need for a vet check. Maybe others think it was all okay because she’s a trainer, but imo, she’s a bad trainer. Is a behaviorist needed in this case? No, just a vet, but THIS trainer is going to create a serious problem, so acting as if there are no bad trainers is nonproductive. It’s not possible to have a productive conversation if people are not going to read carefully enough to understand what’s actually being said.

[Montanas_Girl]

@vwkoch

If I define equine behavior research as investigating things like weaving and cribbing, and you define it as physiology research, we’re going to be talking past each other.

I define equine behavior research as research on the factors influencing or influenced by equine behavior. Which is a lot more than just stereotypies. For example, a study about startle reflex in weanlings and how that does or doesn’t change with age. A study measuring the stress responses of horses involved in or just observing equine-assisted therapy sessions. A study examining whether massage therapy techniques can mitigate stress behaviors during exposure to novel stimuli. A study comparing behavioral responses to novel objects and their predictive value in assessing horses for use in equine-assisted therapy programs. A study piloting a system to assess equine affective states. A study evaluating social enrichment management practices for adult horses. A study examining behavioral indicators of welfare in different stall design types.

All recent research performed by equine scientists, not veterinarians or “behaviorists”.

[fivestrideline]

@vwkoch

Also, just in general (not in response to you), if someone is unwilling to admit that there is such a thing as a bad trainer, we’re definitely going to be talking past each other.

???

No one said this.

And if you’re talking generally, I’m confused as to where this part comes into play. How does that effect the acceptance or interest in “behaviorists” - however you choose to define them?

I think the issue you may be having on this thread in getting your point across is partially the tone and condescension in your posts, the blocks of text with multiple subjects (paragraph breaks are really helpful!), and a bit of content scatter.

[vwkoch]

I absolutely agree that all the topics you listed fit into the category of equine behavior research. However, how do they fit into the categories of exercise physiology, nutrition, reproductive physiology, genetics, etc.? Also, you seem to be under the impression that someone (probably me) said that only veterinarians or behaviorists perform equine behavior research. I certainly never said any such thing, so I guess we’re back to the need to read carefully enough to understand what’s actually being said.

[vwkoch]

I apologize if I’m confusing people with content scatter and multiple subjects. I have been trying to respond to several posts in just one message, and I guess it doesn’t work very well. However, I don’t have time to do much else.

If I say “People (including some trainers) are, indeed, usually the cause of the problems”, I am simply stating a fact. The example I gave of a bad trainer is an example of a trainer who causes problems (and I have many more examples I could give). I didn’t say all trainers; I said some some trainers. The only way someone can take issue with that statement is if that someone believes there are no bad trainers. There are good trainers and bad trainers out there, and I have repeatedly said that behaviorists often work with good trainers — but those trainers need to understand the science of behavior modification, because behav mod is what behaviorists prescribe to help resolve problem behaviors.

Again, if I have a schizophrenic child, I go to a psychiatrist for help, not a teacher. I’m not “dissing” teachers when I say so, I’m merely stating a fact. Each job has its own expertise, but I think many people posting in this thread still don’t understand the difference between a trainer and a behaviorist. I’ve explained it as best I can, and I’m really not interested in trying any more. Those who want to understand do, I think, which is enough for me. Either way, I’ve learned what the obstacles are, which was what I wanted. I don’t need to try to overcome them right now.

[Scribbler]

My understanding is that “behaviorism” understood as a field is a category of psychology that works to alter and shape behavior through the use of stimuli, whether that’s positive or negative reinforcement. It used human and animal subjects in the 1950s, but I think is mostly used in relation to animals these days. Andrew Macclean talks about rehabilitating and extending behavioralist concepts that were seen as extremely outmoded and reductive.

Thus to me a behaviorist is not just any person who tries to train or heal an animal, but someone with education and skills in a specific area and ideology. Clicker training is one small part of behaviorism techniques.

Obviously you can have a riding trainer, a coach, a vet or indeed a behaviorist who is effective and intuitive and kind, and you can also have all these people at the opposite end of the spectrum of ineffective, obtuse, and rough or cruel.

To my mind, as a psychological theory, I find behaviorism rather reductive and limited. However those are also it’s strengths. It can be very useful to have a fresh pair of eyes on a situation that will.cut through the more complex narrative you’ve created about a problem, and look just at what is manifesting in the immediate here and now.

However in my experience reductive and limited intellectual structures tend to attract people who are reductive and limited. That’s why the equine behaviorist that I’ve found useful are people who were already training and riding at a high level of competency and effectiveness before they added the behaviorist aspect to their work. They are already intuitive, capable, and kind with horses, which helps expand their approach.

[skydy]

@vwkoch

Again, if I have a schizophrenic child, I go to a psychiatrist for help, not a teacher. I’m not “dissing” teachers when I say so, I’m merely stating a fact. Each job has its own expertise, but I think many people posting in this thread still don’t understand the difference between a trainer and a behaviorist. I’ve explained it as best I can, and I’m really not interested in trying any more. Those who want to understand do, I think, which is enough for me. Either way, I’ve learned what the obstacles are, which was what I wanted. I don’t need to try to overcome them right now.

Bolding mine.

That sentence explains why people in difficult situations with horses, go to both medical professionals (VETS) and teachers (GOOD HORSE TRAINERS.)

[Montanas_Girl]

@vwkoch

I absolutely agree that all the topics you listed fit into the category of equine behavior research. However, how do they fit into the categories of exercise physiology, nutrition, reproductive physiology, genetics, etc.?

I never said those topics fit into categories other than behavior. I pointed out that most of the people doing behavior research are TRAINED (academically) as nutritionists, geneticists, reproductive physiologists, etc., not behaviorists. I also posted that information in direct refutation of your claim that “only one person” is doing equine behavior research.

Reading for comprehension would help your arguments here considerably.

[sascha]

Is the off course forum handing out shovels willy nilly these days? Just asking.

[trubandloki]

@Eclectic_Horseman

Pony Club for adults is a really necessary thing.

@pluvinel

I believe it is called the “Old People’s Riding Club”…aka OPRC.
https://www.oldpeoplesridingclub.com/

The actual US Pony club allows adult members. There are several on this forum that are active Pony Club members as an adult.

https://www.ponyclub.org/Discover/Adult/#:~:text=Adult%20members%20are%20a%20fully,up%20to%20the%20A%20level.

[pluvinel]

@trubandloki

The actual US Pony club allows adult members. There are several on this forum that are active Pony Club members as an adult.

I believe that Pony Club started to offer adult memberships in the early 2000’s. This was after the OPRC was formed and started “competition” for adult riders that Pony Club opened up their roster to adults.

[vwkoch]

You’re right about the history of behaviorism (and how clicker training fits into the picture). Originally, the term referred to B.F. Skinner and his associates, who saw animal minds as black boxes (which was true at the time) and therefore believed it was inappropriate to say that animals could think. They explained everything in terms of stimulus and response, reducing animals to nothing but machines. That view is outdated at this point (I would definitely not use a Skinnerian behaviorist to treat a behavior problem), and currently, the most common use of the term is for people who treat behavior problems (e.g., the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists). Unfortunately, there’s no legal requirement for using the term, so literally anyone can claim to be a behaviorist. Therefore, if you use a behaviorist, it’s important to check for appropriate credentials. A true behaviorist will have advanced training in the field of behavior (e.g., postgraduate training in the field of animal behavior with experience in training under an expert in actually treating behavior problems). Clicker training uses the Skinnerian principles of training (stimulus/response; specifically, positive reinforcement) to train animals, and it is used by behaviorists but can be used by anyone with training in the techniques. In other words, a clicker trainer is not a behaviorist, but a behaviorist is probably a clicker trainer. Having advanced training in how animals learn makes it easier to determine what went wrong and how to fix it when an animal has a serious problem. You don’t need a behaviorist for every problem, but (for example) only a vet can prescribe drugs if drugs are needed, and that vet needs to be trained in the use of behavioral drugs (or use a veterinary behaviorist as a consultant).

As you also indicate, there are good and bad people in every field, but it seems to be surprisingly easy for people who use cruel techniques to convince other people that they are qualified to handle those people’s animals, maybe because those techniques CAN be effective. I doubt there are many people who want their animals to be abused (and I suspect many, if not all, of the people doing the abusing don’t realize it’s abuse), so it’s just a question of educating people. How do we get there?

[endlessclimb]

Wow, sounds like someone got a degree in Equine Behavior and then realized how useless it is by itself, and now wants to take his/her shots at the ones who actually get it done - the trainers.

[vwkoch]

So, where did I claim that only one person is doing equine behavior research? I’m also curious as to which of the behavior studies you mentioned was done by (for example) an exercise physiologist. Most of the physiologists I know do physiology research.

[vwkoch]

If I have a schizophrenic child, I don’t go to a teacher and a family physician. I go to a psychiatrist. If I did go to a family physician, I’d be referred to a psychiatrist. If you’re not trained to handle something, you’re not qualified to handle it, and you refer it to someone who is.

[vwkoch]

Once again, anyone who thinks I’m trying to build myself up by tearing down others is just wrong. I’m not a behaviorist, and I don’t have a degree in Equine Behavior, and although I think such a degree would be helpful for a trainer, I think a degree in learning theory would be even more useful (and no, I don’t have a degree in learning theory, either). I just understand the difference between a trainer and a behaviorist, and I’m amazed at how many people don’t get it even after it’s explained. How many trainers have postgraduate degrees in animal behavior?

[endlessclimb]

How many have needed one?

Ray Hunt? Warwick Schiller?