Last time I checked vets usually sedate horses to get their stuff done safely and get out.
Vets sedate horses.
They don’t teach them to do things sober like trainers do.
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Ha. Have you ever fox hunted? Raced? Seems to me a bunch of people have been caught doping in horse showing, too.
Which procedures that vets do sedated would you rather have the horse learn to tolerate sober? Shall we stitch them up sober? Shall we remove wolf teeth sober? Shall we do a BAL sober?
Furthermore, used properly, sedation can be a tool to assist a horse in overcoming previous fears whether those fears were “irrational” or man made.
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The idea of involving a vet with your problem horse is not to get the vet to teach it things. It’s to get the vet to fix physical issues that cause bad behavior.
I watched folks working with a beautiful mare who was fussy in the bit tossed her head, had a bad spin and bolt and had broken her owners hip. Mare was at our barn being schooled and sold on eventually to some eventers. Turned out she had impacted wolf teeth and those were finally removed. I only learned that a few years later when she turned up a couple of weeks after surgery at the Andrew Macclean clinic I attended and was still unpredictable in the arena, his diagnosis “she’s still in pain, we can’t do anything.” Mare was in her mid teens, had been started late but had already been under saddle for almost 10 years at that point. I do not know if the eventers got her behavior problems solved after her mouth fully healed.
This is an example of how an unsuspected physical issue that needs vet attention cam be part of a behavior problem.
Also how for a decade a procession of trainers and owners thought she was “bad” and did not recognize she was in pain in her mouth.
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I get it. I figured another tangent was not out of character for this particular thread.
Bet that Mare’s problems were bigger than her wolf teeth - back, front feet, neck possibly.
If we all look back on horses we’ve known I bet we can think of at least a few with “behaviour” problems that could probably be diagnosed as physical issues with today’s diagnostics. And yet, still diagnostics are growing and getting better without being able to pin down absolutely everything.
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It’s true. Even for people who can describe their issues and cooperate with doctors, there can be aches and pains that either don’t have a real diagnosis or don’t have a solution other than careful management.
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Maybe I didn’t choose the best words but I think my comment was misunderstood.
I love that vets sedate things. They are vets. That’s what they do. Everyone stays safe… Horse gets help.
I was referencing more the idea of the vet being the behavioris. I think that’s when you call a trainer.
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Great trainers do not have problem horses.
Great trainers also have the ability to turn down psycho batshit project horses, unless of course they are in the business of rehabbing problem horses like the NH trainers.
Unfortunately great trainers are thin on the ground, and good at training equitation sport dies not always mean good at groundwork. And vice versa. There isn’t time in one life to learn everything.
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Your comment is so far off base I don’t even know what you mean. I literally have no idea what I said that you think you’re addressing. I’m not searching for anything, so I’m not limiting any search to behaviorists. You make assumptions about what I understand that are based on your own total lack of understanding of anything I’ve said that you’ve commented on, so until you actually read what I say well enough to understand it, you’re certainly not being helpful. You’re talking to someone who doesn’t exist.
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You have a point about remote consulting, but I don’t think looking for the cause of sleep deprivation would be a good choice for a video consult, either. A video could help confirm the problem was sleep deprivation, but it wouldn’t necessarily be able to identify the cause. For example, if the cause was arthritis, the video might show it, but if the cause was isolation, it might not be obvious from a video (which helps make your point). Simply having a conversation would be helpful, to go over possible causes, but where I think video consulting would be helpful would be to get a diagnosis of a problem in the first place (e.g., if you didn’t know why your horse was collapsing). Then, if it was a problem where behav mod was prescribed and wasn’t working, video could show what was happening so you could try to fix it. Anyway, you’re right. Remote consulting won’t work for everything.
You’re also right that there are lots of educated people who have zero ability to apply that knowledge practically. However, the difference between a trainer and a behaviorist isn’t just in the degree. It’s in the knowledge (and the field of knowledge) the degree represents and the use being made of that knowledge. A trainer trains horses to do things riders want. A behaviorist identifies and uses appropriate training techniques (among other things) to help horses overcome serious behavior problems, which is NOT the same as training a horse to be ridden in one or another style of riding.
A person with nothing but experience can be a good trainer, but there isn’t a large knowledge base to pull from to resolve serious mental problems the trainer has never previously seen. A person with some training (e.g., a course in clicker training) can be an even better trainer because there is a bigger knowledge base (more tools in the toolbox), but the emphasis is still on training tasks, not resolving serious problems. The knowledge base of a person certified as a behaviorist consists of years of specialized training specifically in handling serious problem behaviors, plus years of experience dealing with problems under the supervision of an expert.
A behaviorist is not going to teach you how to do a flying change. A behaviorist should be able to help resolve a sleep deprivation problem, although it may take a vet behaviorist if drugs are needed. It sounds to me as if you and Dr. McDonnell weren’t clear with each other about what you wanted vs what you got. It’s pretty much always going to take more than one consultation to resolve serious behavior problems. You don’t get just one lesson from a trainer and think you’re set for life. You probably won’t need a behaviorist for as long as you need a trainer, but you will probably need several consultations as you work through the problem. I suspect working for a large institution results in having to have canned ways to address problems, which is not the best way to do things. Did you ever get the problem resolved?
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Equitation Science is a new field of study (started by McLean, McGreevy, and some others) that focuses on equine welfare. McLean is a behaviorist and teaches behavior modification techniques, but those techniques have been around for decades longer than Equitation Science has existed. Knowing and using those techniques improves equine welfare, which is why they’re a part of Equitation Science.
I didn’t blank on McLean’s name when you mentioned it. I just didn’t think about him in connection with training for trainers until you mentioned him for the second time right after I mentioned that such training exists. Getting his diploma is pricey, but it would carry weight with people in the field of equine behavior/welfare.
Anyway, you summed up what I’ve been trying to say all along: “many maybe most trainers do not think in behaviorist terms. And most of the time that works out fine. It’s when they have a problem they can’t solve that they might try a behaviorist.” It’s a little more complicated when you get into the details, but you hit the bottom line. Maybe, people just need the experience…
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Psychosis is where a vet behaviorist comes in — the equivalent of a psychiatrist. A vet behaviorist can also identify neurological issues, which may or may not be resolvable. In either case, the tools will likely be meds, but sometimes scientific behavior modification techniques can also help (along with the meds).
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We don’t tend to use behaviorism or cognitive therapy as a primary treatment for human psychosis.
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Right. As I said, the tools will likely be meds, but the behavior techniques may also help. Veterinary behavioral medicine is essentially brand new compared to human behavioral medicine (and neither is anywhere near foolproof).
Be careful with the term “behaviorism.” It is usually considered to be referring to Skinner’s behavioral theories, and I don’t think you want people to think you believe that animals are stimulus/response machines. That history makes it difficult to find a term for what today’s behaviorists do, but I don’t think they want people to think they believe that animals are stimulus/response machines, either. 
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Speaking of vets sedating horses and good ground training made me think of some other things worth mentioning. Equitation training is usually negative reinforcement, which is why clicker training hasn’t taken off with horses. Positive reinforcement is difficult — but not impossible — while riding. However, positive reinforcement can easily be used in handling-type groundwork. Some people do use it, but it would be nice to see more of it.
Also, horses can be trained to behave calmly with the vet, so sedation isn’t always needed. You still need analgesia for things like pulling wolf teeth, but you don’t need analgesia or sedation to float teeth, for example (if you have a good vet). Also, horses can be trained to accept things like poking your finger up their nostrils, to prepare them to stay calm if a tube needs to be passed. Clicker training could also be useful for rehabbing a horse that’s needle-shy. It would be nice if there were some trainers who included “medical behaviors” in groundwork training. It would make life easier on everybody if horses were prepared for some of the scary things vets do.
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My late vet floated my mare without tranq when he was able to just hand rasp but as she got older and needed the mechanical grinder, he needed to sedate. I can’t imagine putting that in the mouth without sedation.
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Lots do, but aren’t so full of time on their hands that they put it in its own cute little category or need to call attention to it as a thing. Things like a horse standing on a block for foot rads without flinching are taught so easily by placing feet down nicely after hoof picking every day and insisting that feet remain where placed unless there is further direction given are training items that don’t require a behaviourist or a vet. None of the other items you mention require a behaviourist either because they are training items. Hell, they don’t even require a clicker or particularly good timing.
And, if a horse escapes this training and develops unwanted reactions to vet, it’s still a training issue, not a “behaviour” issue requiring some specially accredited person. It requires a decent trainer. Period.
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You seem to be stuck on horse trainers being about riding or performing. There are, however, plenty of good trainers who spend a significant amount of time working with horses on other issues that do not involve riding or “performing” (think about trainers who specialize in getting horses to load on trailers, or who work on breeding farms with young horses). While their goal is to encourage a desire able behaviour from those horses, IMO they, too, are using appropriate training techniques to overcome behaviour problems, as you describe behaviorists to do.
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I would add that many times it doesn’t matter what the root cause of the behavioral problem is, unless it is a current veterinary issue which needs to be diagnosed and treated by a vet. But I firmly believe that behavioral issues can be caused by past trauma. It doesn’t matter what caused the trauma (veterinary issue, accident, poor training or abuse, for example), a trainer can frequently resolve the behavior through good training techniques.
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