Survey on Problem Behaviors in Horses

My late mare understood how to operate a two-wheeled wheelbarrow (she knew that she had to flip one end up before she could push it with her nose), and she also once opened a carton of molasses that I had left outside her stall while I was out of sight for two minutes (she removed the cap with her teeth and then knocked it over so the molasses would spill out).

I have no idea exactly how she taught herself these things, but she was certainly capable of problem-solving in some way.

Edited to add another example: she was impatient on the trailer and was always happiest if I immediately opened the driverā€™s side people door of the trailer as soon as we stopped for gas or arrived at a show. On the way to our last show, I pulled into an abandoned service station and texted an update about my drive while listening to my mare stomp her foot repeatedly and then go quiet, before exiting my truck.

I then discovered that my mare was happily peering out the open side door of the trailer, which had most definitely been securely closed while we were on the road. She somehow had figured out how the latch worked and managed to operate it, presumably with her teeth.

No one believes these stories when I tell them as anything besides pure coincidence, but she was quite something.

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The saying is that horses do not reason. You saying they reason will not change that.

A horse will go back into a float that has rolled because they cannot reason that it will happen again. Horses do not reason that they can use a stable fork to get the hay rake down from a loft to get a bale of hay when they are starving to death. Most horses even though taught to jump will not reason to jump a fence to get to water.

Again you are trying to change terms that experienced horsepeople understandā€¦

@Night_Flight that goes under you can teach a horse to do anything. Also many horses learn how to get out and then let all their friends out as well.

Anecdotally I will say that horses can learn from osmosis, and yes trainers can train out separation anxiety. I have.

If the difference between a trainer and a behaviorist is that the behaviorist can recommend drugs (or prescribe if theyā€™re a vet behaviorist), whatā€™s the difference between a behaviorist and a vet? The OP mentioned vet behaviorists being able to diagnose neurological issues, but since vets without behaviorist training do that all the time it seems thatā€™s the vet part of vet behaviorist in action. And as vets can do testing and treatment, why would one want a behaviorist to ā€œdiagnoseā€ neurological issues?

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<It would be very simple to ā€œfixā€ this emotional distress in horses by simply putting them in species appropriate living situations.>

It would be simple if people were willing to do it. Maybe, someday, weā€™ll get there, but weā€™re certainly not there now. In some cases, people might even have a valid reason for their choices.

<When you put an animal in a species-inappropriate living situation that causes emotional distress, then define that as mental illness, and start trying to medicate the behaviour, itā€™s a losing battle.>

There are MANY horses that live in stalls, and surprisingly few of them are distressed. So, with the ones that are, there is something in their brains that prevents them from adapting. Iā€™m not sure mental illness is an appropriate term, but mental problem certainly is. If an animal is distressed, that distress needs to be relieved for it to be able to learn things, and learning things may be all it needs to get over its problem. Medicating a horse with separation anxiety to allow it to learn how to accept the temporary absence of its neighbor is not really different from medicating a horse to help it adapt to stall rest. Neither horse has a mental illness. Both just need help adapting.

Absolutely, behaviorists are going to want to change the situation, but if doing so is impossible, they arenā€™t going to give up on the horse. It is possible to treat separation anxiety, or depression, or stir-crazy stall-rest horses. You just need to have the training to know how to do so.

If youā€™re really interested, Iā€™d recommend The Mind of the Horse: An Introduction to Equine Cognition by Michel-Antoine Leblanc. Itā€™s science-based, not woo-woo, and covers the research up till 2013, when it was published. Weā€™re 10 years on now, but itā€™s still a great reference.

As far as articles go, Evelyn Hanggi was the first name that came to mind. She has published some interesting ones:

Hanggi, E. B. and Ingersoll, J. F. (2009). Long-term memory for categories and concepts in horses ( Equus caballus ). Animal Cognition, 12(3), 451-462. DOI: 10.1007/s10071-008-0205-9.
Hanggi, E. B. (2005). The thinking horse: cognition and perception reviewed (available on her website at http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-thinkinghorse.pdf). In: Proceedings of the 51st American Association of Equine Practitioners Annual Convention, 51, 246-255, Seattle, WA.
Hanggi, E. B. (2003). Discrimination learning based on relative size concepts in horses (Equus caballus ). Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 83(3), 201-213.
Hanggi, E. B. (1999). Categorization learning in the horse ( Equus caballus ). Journal of Comparative Psychology, 113(3), 1-10.

If you canā€™t access scientific articles, thereā€™s this one:

Hanggi, E. B. (2001). Mind the horseā€™s mind (available at http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-mindthehorsesmind.pdf). Horse Illustrated, 25(11), 84-89. November.

There are a lot of others listed on her website: http://www.equineresearch.org/horse-articles.html. She also has a book: Equine Learning and Behaviour. I havenā€™t read it, but itā€™s probably a pretty good one. Iā€™m sure you can find more scientific articles by searching Google Scholar for ā€œequine cognition.ā€ There is a lot of info out there, but Iā€™m not sure how accessible it is to the general public.

Anyway, hope this list helps, and let me know if it doesnā€™t. I can look harder, but these things are what popped into my head. Always glad to help anyone interested in learning more about how horses think. :slight_smile:

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A vet behaviorist is a veterinary behavior specialist. General practice vets deal with everything, but when something is more complicated, they refer clients to specialists in internal medicine, orthopedics, surgery, etc. ā€” including behavior. For that matter, an equine vet is a specialist in equine medicine. You wouldnā€™t take your horse to a small animal vet. As Iā€™ve said several times now, a vet behaviorist is the equivalent of a psychiatrist. Itā€™s just like human medicine. Your primary care physician is a general practitioner, but if you need more than very minor surgery (for example), you are sent to a surgeon. Medicine is WAY too broad a field for someone to be an expert in everything.

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Thanks.

Thanks for that!, Iā€™ll take a look :+1:

EDIT
From what I could access I could see no evidence of horses reasoning ability as I understand it (though this could be a semantic issue) other than the directly below;

ā€˜ā€˜Our findings indicate that innovative horses solved the problem partially through trial and error [18] and positive reinforcement with food motivated them to manipulate the feeder longer [87]. Otherwise a higher tenacity in innovative problem-solving may indicate that individualsā€™ motivation is goal directed [8]. Furthermore, the fact that innovative horses took more time to approach the feeder may have been a result of their higher inhibitory control or may suggest that some horses solved the problem through reasoning, and therefore through higher cognitive abilities [88,89,90]. However, our first approach to innovative learning in horses did not aim to evaluate learning mechanisms. This needs to be investigated in detail by further studies.ā€™ā€™

Considering the small size of the horses frontal lobe ;
ā€˜ā€˜What is the frontal lobe responsible for?
The frontal lobes are important for voluntary movement, expressive language and for managing higher level executive functions . Executive functions refer to a collection of cognitive skills including the capacity to plan, organise, initiate, self-monitor and control oneā€™s responses in order to achieve a goal.ā€™ā€™

and referring to Dr Andrew Mclean;
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2018/07/andrew-mclean-asks-how-smart-is-your-horse/

get a Morgan, they may change your opinion

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Interesting that McLean would republish that article as still being true today. Much is, but some is not. I wonder if he actually read it before posting, or if he was just thinking about his main point (donā€™t assume horses think like humans ā€” which will always be true) and didnā€™t realize that some of what he says has been disproved.

Just out of curiosity, I Googled the definition of reasoning, and the first one I found is ā€œthe process of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment.ā€ The articles I chose to recommend are mostly about forming categories and concepts. At least to me, forming a concept meets the definition of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment. For example, if a horse looks at several samples and concludes that their common quality is a large or small size, that process seems to involve both logic and judgment.

The PubMed article was about innovative behavior. I think that figuring out how to operate a feeder never seen before also meets the definition of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment. The horses were presented with a puzzle, which they solved. I think most people would see puzzle-solving as something that requires logic (how do I approach this problem?) and judgment (choosing to pursue the avenues that work).

It may still be a semantic difference. Horses are never going to solve higher math problems. However, just because they canā€™t reason as well as humans doesnā€™t mean they canā€™t reason at all.

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No info sheet or consent form, so not an IRB approved data collection. I gave the wrong email for followup, but would be happy to so so, I gave the vorrect one for the results, so she can use th at.

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If a behavioral ā€œspecialistā€ were a specialist in horses, I might consult him or her. But Iā€™ve yet to be convinced by one.
I have know many specialists in equine behavior. Not one would call him or herself an animal behaviorist :wink:

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Actually they have a lot in common. Horses do reason. We all know or know of that horse who undoes the horse-proof latch of his stall and then proceeds to let all his friends out as well.

Dogs also reason. Dogs are usually better at it, but it is a continuum. They are both pack animals with a high capacity to interpret slight social cues. Dogs donā€™t have any more traffic sense than horses (even less, in my experience). Dogs also learn from reward/lack of reward and also pressure/lack of pressure, but it feels different because 1) they are predators not prey and 2) we are their social group, we are not horsesā€™ social group.

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After reading all this back and forth, I still couldnā€™t tell you what a behaviorist does that is fundamentally different from what a trainer does.

ā€œTrainerā€ includes a vast range of skill and talent levels, from genius to idiot, and encompasses a great a range of focuses (foal training, performance training, retraining problem horses, feral horse gentling, etc). The OP writes as though she believes there exist only trainers who are ignorant of basic knowledge of horse behaviors and their causes, who could really benefit from the new scientific knowledge. While such surely exist, they are also the very people who wonā€™t benefit from such knowledge. Why? Because they are crap trainers who donā€™t want to learn anything new. The excellent trainers already have incorporated the newest knowledge of horse behavior into their toolbox.

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Horses can not be taught to have traffic sense.

Puppies do not have traffic sence yet.

The fact that dogs do have traffic sense is why we have seeing eye dogs.

If a blind person tells a guide dog to cross a road with a car coming, the dog knows not to cross and can be taught not to cross even if told to cross.

Not so with a horse, pony cat or kangaroo, they will cross if taught to cross when told.

Horses have reasoning skills appropriate to their species and they have sensory perception way in advance of humans. They can hear and smell things we canā€™t, and can also feel electrical force fields we canā€™t. They can see further away than humans but donā€™t have as good binocular vision. Like all sentient beings, horses use sensory input as data for their reasoning process.

So a horse may be able to smell that a bear was here an hour ago, or hear microtears in the trees in windy weather, or see horses a mile away across the river or know there is a storm blowing in or feel a force field around a transformer box or catch the feelings of another horse in the arena who is angry and desperate. Then they make rational choices that seem irrational to us because we donā€™t have the same data.

I am always bemused when animal intelligence is measured using human scales, like understanding spoken language or solving mechanical problems. These are fun things that some horses do learn if they are extraverted and social. But they are not core to Being A Horse.

Add to that, we spend a lot of time discouraging horses from fiddling with infrastructure. We donā€™t want them pawing, chewing, opening gates, opening doors etc. after a lifetime of being in environments that are deliberately made horse proof why would we expect a horse to quickly figure out that this particular feeder can be operated by them? Only the annoying nosy fiddly horses will figure this out (mine would). The horses who have properly learned over time not to be fiddly and annoying are less likely to try.

I also shake my head when people say animal has ā€œthe intelligence of a 2 year old human childā€ or 5 year old or whatever. Based on how much spoken vocabulary they respond to

No they donā€™t. There is no comparison. Put most healthy adult horses loose on a field or even open range and they will exhibit the full range of adult horse intelligence including social and emotional intelligence in the herd, problem solving for food and water, and staying safe from weather and threats.

Put a 5 year old child loose in any environment without adult help and they will die. Even if they can speak in complete sentences and even read a little. Or solve simple construction block problems.

Horses have an intelligence that is more ā€œotherā€ to us than dogs are, and the first step in training them or in studying behavior is to understand and relate to that intelligence as much as you can. Good trainers have internalized this, or rather I should say good horsemen, which is a more comprehensive and rarer category than just training.

I understand that itā€™s difficult to set up quantitative experiments on intelligence that arenā€™t based on ludicrously anthropomorphic standards, but the conclusions drawn from this are misleading and take us farther away from knowing and feeling how horses think, percieved and reason.

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random side track - apparently there are miniature horses working as seeing eye guides for people who canā€™t use a dog for whatever reason

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Whelp, thereā€™s where you lost me.

I think OP has this mental block that trainers arenā€™t behaviorists in the definition they are using, when they absolutely are (minus the bad trainers). If you have a horse with separation anxiety, you can find a trainer that is good at helping with that. If your horse hates taking paste medicine, a good trainer can help with that. If your horse freaks out when the vet comes, a good trainer can help with thar.

Heck, by OPs definition, I better start charging the people at my barn that I help fix all of these things for because Iā€™m apparently a behaviorist. :upside_down_face: Please reach out if you would like to inquire about my services!

Now, I do think that classes in behavior and neuroscience can be a GREAT supplement to trainers and vets. And there is a less experienced crowd out there that would probably happily try a ā€œbehavioristā€ before a ā€œtrainerā€ with behavior problems. This isnā€™t that crowd though, most of the people on here can fix most issues themselves or have access to trainers that can.

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I wonder if they can be taught not to walk into oncoming traffic if told.

The only reason we can train horses is because of their memory. Horses have great memories.

I assume they have to meet the same standard as a dog to get the status? I seem to remember one of the reasons they were trying it was the longer life span than a dog.

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