Talk to me about thrush

[lenapesadie]

I’m in the camp of all horses have “thrush”. Just like folks have bacteria on their skin and yeast in places. It’s only a problem when it’s “too much”.

For a horse that you can’t physically handle yourself every day I think it’s tricky. If horse has any significant thrush it’s certainly not helping his other heel issues. But “curing” the thrush is unlikely to “cure” his heels.

If you see your horse once a week, I’d suggest trying a strong thrush treatment followed by packing it with cotton bits once a week and adding a cu:zn supp. I dunno that paying for daily thrush treatments done by barn staff will have enough reward to be worth the cost. Depends on how much barn will charge. There’s about eleventy billion thrush treatments. Desitin based concoctions and Vetericyn hoof spray are my current favs.

IME hoof boots increase thrush more than pads w pour in under them.

IME Magic Cushion provides comfort and discourages thrush. But I’ve only ever used it on one horse and he was shod.

[JB]

@lenapesadie

I’m in the camp of all horses have “thrush”

All horses may be exposed to the bacteria that causes thrush, if that’s what you mean. But even too much exposure doesn’t automatically cause the condition called thrush, which is actual infection.

It’s like rain rot - that’s a condition caused by infection from the bacteria that all horses are exposed to, because it lives in the soil

@fivestrideline

Is this Everything Is Thrush or Caused By It movement just because it’s a good starting point before digging deeper into soft tissue or navicular or whatever?

I haven’t run into this movement, but it shouldn’t be that difficult to see if thrush is a possibility, or not. A healthy frog has a shallow “thumbprint” central sulcus, it doesn’t have a “butt crack” between the heels, and a healthy foot has relatively shallow collateral grooves. Thrush doesn’t exist there.

Can we see a solar and lateral view of a foot in question?

@fivestrideline

Are the treatments just not particularly effective, since almost every comment is “keep treating thrush” or “been treating thrush for two years”?

My guess is that instead of thrush, or at least in addition to, the bigger issue is what most people can’t see, which is a weak digital cushion, which makes the whole back of the foot sore.

Or, they really are constantly battling thrush because they never actually get the trim fixed.

@fivestrideline

A lot of these people are keeping horses out 24/7 (mine included), is that causing thrush since the feet can’t dry out?

Mine are out full time (barring meals), mostly in red clay mud for the Winters, and nobody has thrush. If living out caused thrush, horses would have died a long time ago

But if there is active thrush, then it does make it harder to treat it if the feet are constantly in mud.

[lenapesadie]

@JB

@lenapesadie

I’m in the camp of all horses have “thrush”

All horses may be exposed to the bacteria that causes thrush, if that’s what you mean. But even too much exposure doesn’t automatically cause the condition called thrush, which is actual infection.

Precisely. Though I’ve picked very few feet that had 0 indication of thrush. Some horses seem to only ever get “surface” thrush that resolves with limited human intervention and others develop deep seated infections that persist despite intense management.

[Posting_Trot]

Thrush is hard to treat successfully partly because the conditions that make it more likely don’t go away with the treatment. For example, horses that have smallish frogs with deep cracks are more likely to have thrush–that deep crack is perfect for the incubation of the germs that cause thrush. And after a month’s worth of thrush treatment, you may successfully beat back the active infection but the underlying problem is still there. Once you stop treating, the thrush often returns.

But, you can do some things that will perhaps help. One is to make sure that the horse’s trim is good and that the overall hoof-form is good (or progressing towards good with every trim). You can also reassess the horse’s diet to make sure that he’s getting the nutrition needed to support the hooves. And you can make sure that the horse is living in dry enough conditions (often tricky to do in boarding situations).

Good luck.

[fivestrideline]

This is the “worst” foot. From a sulcus perspective anyways.

And here are solar shots of the other 3.

[JB]

How long has the current farrier been trimming these feet? They need a lot of help

There is likely thrush in that first foot. It’s also bullnosed, as a side effect of a long-term negative coffin bone angle (heel lower than toe). I would want at least a lateral xray of this foot. That NPA - negative palmar (hind) or plantar (front) angle will make horse sore from the foot up.

I see retained sole in all the feet. The rise of the sole from the collateral grooves should be more bowl-shaped, much less ledge-shaped.

There may be some collateral groove thrush in the other 3 feet

If the current farrier has been on board a while, you need a new one.

[Scribbler]

Yes, there absolutely is an Everything is Thrush movement, and I have seen self taught trimmers claim feet that are merely waterlogged have “terrible thrush.” I have also seen iatrogenic problems or Munchausen’s by Proxy where owners do something like soak the feet in dilute cider every day so they never get a chance to firm up and stay tender and call it thrush. In both cases once the horse got a chance to dry out his feet there was no issue. So yeah, stay off FB groups.

Also yes those hooves have a lot of bar that needs to come out and the heels can be opened to start the process of letting the run forward heel move back.

I did end up with deep sulcus thrush on project mare, it was tender to a hoof pick and she was NQR on sand footing. First time for me. I decided to treat it with something non caustic so I went with a mix of zinc oxide, antibiotic cream and athletes foot cream in a syringe I could get right up the crack. Mare is bad with her feet so soaking was off the table. It worked but took about a month for more frog to grow out and be sound. That was my first ever personal experience with deep sulcus thrush and it’s a real thing.

In the past I’ve thought my main mare has a sulcus crack but it’s just been frog starting to shed. I give her a spray of iodine if I think her foot has an odor or seems too wet.

[fivestrideline]

@JB

How long has the current farrier been trimming these feet? They need a lot of help

There is likely thrush in that first foot. It’s also bullnosed, as a side effect of a long-term negative coffin bone angle (heel lower than toe). I would want at least a lateral xray of this foot. That NPA - negative palmar (hind) or plantar (front) angle will make horse sore from the foot up.

I see retained sole in all the feet. The rise of the sole from the collateral grooves should be more bowl-shaped, much less ledge-shaped.

There may be some collateral groove thrush in the other 3 feet

If the current farrier has been on board a while, you need a new one.

I fired this farrier the day before we took these pics. It’s a fresh trim after pulling the shoes the day before. For a variety of reasons, but these feet backslid ridiculously fast with him - they were much much better before I switched to him. This is the farrier that told me “his feet are fixed, stop worrying about them”. New guy has done the horse once so far (barefoot trim), but I’m looking to help get the horse more comfortable in his body. Hence the digging around on hoof care sites and forums looking for ideas!

[fivestrideline]

@Scribbler

Yes, there absolutely is an Everything is Thrush movement, and I have seen self taught trimmers claim feet that are merely waterlogged have “terrible thrush.” I have also seen iatrogenic problems or Munchausen’s by Proxy where owners do something like soak the feet in dilute cider every day so they never get a chance to firm up and stay tender and call it thrush. In both cases once the horse got a chance to dry out his feet there was no issue. So yeah, stay off FB groups.

Also yes those hooves have a lot of bar that needs to come out and the heels can be opened to start the process of letting the run forward heel move back.

I did end up with deep sulcus thrush on project mare, it was tender to a hoof pick and she was NQR on sand footing. First time for me. I decided to treat it with something non caustic so I went with a mix of zinc oxide, antibiotic cream and athletes foot cream in a syringe I could get right up the crack. Mare is bad with her feet so soaking was off the table. It worked but took about a month for more frog to grow out and be sound. That was my first ever personal experience with deep sulcus thrush and it’s a real thing.

In the past I’ve thought my main mare has a sulcus crack but it’s just been frog starting to shed. I give her a spray of iodine if I think her foot has an odor or seems too wet.

This is what I’m seeing.

I have had a new farrier for one trim since these pics were taken, so we will see. I may try the zinc oxide cream to give him a chance to clear anything up, packing the crack like another poster said. Definitely not doing anything caustic.

[Scribbler]

I like iodine or gentian violet (which doesn’t sting) to dry up the surface of questionable feet but not down a sulcus crack that’s already tender.

I also think overall health and nutrition has a big impact. I’d look into his hoof nutrition copper zinc biotin. I also think poor hoof angles and trim correlate with thrush. Its possible a hoof growing at a normal fast pace can outgrow fungal infections.

Thrush interestingly is a condition that can be caused by several different microorganisms, fungus and bacteria, that may be endemic to the hoof and may even play a role in helping natural frog shedding (theory I’ve read somewhere). So unless you do a lab culture you don’t know what you’re actually fighting, hence the variations on what works for various cases and the continued popularity of strong but untargeted products like white lightning and copper sulfate over more modern targeted antibiotics or antifungals.

It’s really common to have only one horse in a herd show thrush symptoms, or have a horse show thrush in only one foot. I see a correlation between poor hoof angles and incorrect trim and thrush. Lots of horses have one foot that is more contracted or upright and that foot will go thrushy.

There’s also something funky on the outside quarters of the thrushy hoof. A big hole. Is this some white line disease or separation or is it just a hole left by some bar or sole shedding? Is it soft up there?

I agree that when you first pull shoes you don’t want an aggressive trim but the next trim start getting the bars out and heel opened.

[fivestrideline]

@Scribbler

I also think overall health and nutrition has a big impact. I’d look into his hoof nutrition copper zinc biotin. I also think poor hoof angles and trim correlate with thrush. Its possible a hoof growing at a normal fast pace can outgrow fungal infections.

Horse is on TC 30, free choice quality grass hay and some pasture, and gets 4000iu E, MSM, Cu and Zn, and GUT. We might be adding Mg, but no added biotin. He grows a TON of foot, had the nail holes grown out in about 2 weeks (BO rasps his toes for me sometimes).

[Scribbler]

@fivestrideline

@Scribbler

I also think overall health and nutrition has a big impact. I’d look into his hoof nutrition copper zinc biotin. I also think poor hoof angles and trim correlate with thrush. Its possible a hoof growing at a normal fast pace can outgrow fungal infections.

Horse is on TC 30, free choice quality grass hay and some pasture, and gets 4000iu E, MSM, Cu and Zn, and GUT. We might be adding Mg, but no added biotin. He grows a TON of foot, had the nail holes grown out in about 2 weeks (BO rasps his toes for me sometimes).

Ok that’s all very promising!!

[athelas]

I had a horse with chronic thrush as a kid and god, that poor guy. I suspect he had some other issues going on that contributed to a weakened immune system but anyway, I was introduced to the dry cow treatment “Tomorrow” by a vet and that certainly helped. It comes in a syringe so you can get deep into the sulcus and other problem areas.

My horse now has giant, great feet but when he lived at various barns with horrendous seasons of mud, I sprayed him with a diluted ACV solution to help dry him out.

[JB]

@fivestrideline

New guy has done the horse once so far (barefoot trim), but I’m looking to help get the horse more comfortable in his body. Hence the digging around on hoof care sites and forums looking for ideas!

WHEW!!!

IMHO the thrush is likely not causing any, at least most, of the discomfort. The bigger issue is, IMHO, the overall state of the feet - NPA, retained sole, all of that affects hoof comfort, and even if you gain a lot of relief by getting out the retained sole, the longer-term effects of the NPA are going to take longer to resolve, because that’s permeated through the body, it’s not limited to the feet

@fivestrideline

Horse is on TC 30, free choice quality grass hay and some pasture, and gets 4000iu E, MSM, Cu and Zn, and GUT. We might be adding Mg, but no added biotin. He grows a TON of foot, had the nail holes grown out in about 2 weeks (BO rasps his toes for me sometimes).

Looks perfect

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Scribbler

a mix of zinc oxide, antibiotic cream and athletes foot cream in a syringe

Scribbler could you share your ‘recipe’ please? Thanks.

[Scribbler]

It’s from Pete Ramey the big barefoot trimmer.

Polysporin, Desitin, and an athlete’s foot cream in equal proportions mixed and applied with a big syringe, the kind you’d use to dose meds. I tried to mix the stuff by just putting it in the syringe but it was quite stiff. If I was doing it again I’d maybe try warming the components gently and mixing in a dish and putting in the syringe. I would maybe do it at home, where I have lots of spatulas etc rather than at the barn.

[fivestrideline]

@JB

IMHO the thrush is likely not causing any, at least most, of the discomfort. The bigger issue is, IMHO, the overall state of the feet - NPA, retained sole, all of that affects hoof comfort, and even if you gain a lot of relief by getting out the retained sole, the longer-term effects of the NPA are going to take longer to resolve, because that’s permeated through the body, it’s not limited to the feet

Yeah I have 2 years worth of X-rays, and a whole saga of farrier shopping, moving states, and farrier shopping again. It’s been a nightmare. Horse was NPA on all 4, then 0 and a little better on the fronts. Vet prescribed wedges up front and full pads all around. I suspect the farrier whose work is pictured in this thread has caused my horse to regress.

Can any amount of progress be made barefoot? Assuming a decent trim (TBD on that - new farrier has done him once as I said). If I have to shoe/pad/etc the horse, I have to pour money into my truck and trailer and haul 1.5 hours one way to the specialist- assuming she can make time for me on the weekends. Horse hates trailer rides (I wonder if balancing is painful).

[JB]

Progress CAN be made barefoot, depending on how NPA things are. The benefit is that you can trim much more frequently, even doing a little rasping in between visits, as directed by your trimmer

Boots can be used with wedge pads, which can be used part time, or even full time for a while as long as you make some considerations like using something like Gold Bond Medicated Powder to help keep things drier, especially a concern with thrush. But you can also pack that butt-crack with medicated cotton to help with that on in particular.

Sometimes shoes with wedges make the fastest (or any) changes because you can immediately align things, encourage better growth because things are better-aligned and the horse is moving more correctly.

[fivestrideline]

@JB

Boots can be used with wedge pads, which can be used part time, or even full time for a while as long as you make some considerations like using something like Gold Bond Medicated Powder to help keep things drier, especially a concern with thrush.

I am looking into this. He’s on 24/7 turnout, and I live an hour away. However, I’m pretty confident the BO would switch his boots out if I bought 2 sets, to let the others dry. I’m looking at the EasyBoot Clouds with the wedge pads. Still, wedged boots sounds like the easiest solution vs hauling to a specialist farrier. The horse is retired, unless something changes dramatically with his condition.

[kaya842]

Progress can definitely be made barefoot, and with my personal hot mess hooved horse she progressed better/ faster with boots / barefoot than shoes. Like JB said, the biggest advantage of barefoot is doing trims more frequently. For my horse, we did once a week for months, then every other, and now are at every 3 which is probably where she will stay.

For boots, I bought French clay and zinc powder on Amazon (less than $10 each for a larger bag of each) and mixed equal parts into a little shaker that I used to dust the boots every time they went on the horse. No rubs and kept the funk down considerably. I would also spray the boots with a listerine/ chlorehexidine/ water mix every so often, and sprayed the hooves with the same mix daily during her boot-free time in the stall to let everything breathe.

I use the listerine mix for thrush too and will pack the hoof with home made “Hoof Stuff” (by RedHorse) - pulled apart cotton balls, zinc diaper cream, and honey. Sometimes I packed the hoof daily, sometimes I’d leave the pack in until it fell out on its own, and sometimes I honestly forgot. I took about 4 months of the above + good trims every 3 weeks for this hoof to improve (horse had been in open heeled steel shoes most, if not all, if it’s 18 years of life).

As to if every horse has thrush, no not every but I think a lot more have it than their owners realize. The above horse was in excellent care when I bought her, I really believe if the owner thought she had thrush (or could otherwise improve the hoof) she would have. The hoof didn’t smell or have the standard black nastiness, just this deep, right crack which I recognized as a sign of thrush (and caudal failure but that’s another thing) and treated it. As to if thrush is part of the pain issue - for my horse I’m not sure. She was big time sore on her feet but she had retained sole, high bars, and extremely weak digital cushion. Not all of that is 100% fixed yet, but lots of improvement overall has made her not sore anymore.