It just came to me and seemed interesting.
The US, Germany, and France all have a good bit of Teddy back in the engine room of their TBs. UK/Irish bred TBs with their classic pedigrees still don’t. Even their horses from imports seem to me to be remarkably Teddy free.
If this is wrong, please correct me.
I love a good bit of Teddy in a pedigree personally.
From a learning standpoint, why do you think that is? Do you think it is a type preference? What suits/suited the tracks/competition best?
Do you think Teddy is a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral? Other ramifications?
[QUOTE=Wits End Eventing;7313007]
I love a good bit of Teddy in a pedigree personally.[/QUOTE]
Me too. A powerhouse to have in the back room. You find him through so many stallions (and broodmares) now, which to me says something about his potency and talent as a sire.
Honestly–for sport horses , the more lines to Teddy from different ancestors, the better. He’s been well proved in Germany, France and Italy as well as here as being a good line for sport.
Teddy (& Plucky Liege) did exceptionally well in the US. Three of his sons (Bulldog, Sir Gallahad and Quatre Bras were imported as was Teddy late in life, where he sired Case Ace, to name the most important of his US get. His sons certainly could sire turf horses, since the German and French run on turf. The Italians had Ortello, and his son Sirte was imported the US also. As was Coastal Traffic out of a Teddy daughter, a UK bred who stood for two years there before getting sent to France where he was an immediate success. After several years in France, he came to the US.
Why he was never a popular UK/Ire line? I have no idea unless it has to do with their mare base. Many, if not most, of the Teddy get who were in the UK either were exported or their get were exported.
Maybe British TB breeding was so far in advance of the rest of the world at the time that they decided Teddy was second rate and could only excel in “lesser” racing countries.
Interesting. Thanks for the info!
I just checked, and Northern Dancer is completely Teddy free. Which means that Native Dancer is also Teddy free.
Maybe the lack of Teddy in those two lines is part of why the US TB is not what it used to be.
While obviously breeding is just an indicator and you have to look at the horse in front of you, would you consider a pedigree with Teddy through 5 different mares and 5 different stallions “good” or "average’’?
Honestly–for sport horses , the more lines to Teddy from different ancestors, the better. He’s been well proved in Germany, France and Italy as well as here as being a good line for sport.
Teddy (& Plucky Liege) did exceptionally well in the US.
I am with you Viney. We look for those lines in making breeding decisions, and, on a ridiculous note, Dale is in love with the name “Plucky Liege.” Cheers!!
Honestly–for sport horses , the more lines to Teddy from different ancestors, the better. He’s been well proved in Germany, France and Italy as well as here as being a good line for sport.
Teddy (& Plucky Liege) did exceptionally well in the US.
I am with you Viney. We look for those lines in making breeding decisions, and, on a ridiculous note, Dale is in love with the name “Plucky Liege.” Cheers!!
I’d say that’s pretty exceptional. Especially if you have doubles to any of them. IIRC, the most Teddy that I can recall is 19 lines in one mare.
[QUOTE=weixiao;7313706]
While obviously breeding is just an indicator and you have to look at the horse in front of you, would you consider a pedigree with Teddy through 5 different mares and 5 different stallions “good” or "average’’?[/QUOTE]
Very interesting observation.
Viney, do you use Sporthorse-data to see the line-breeding in a pedigree? Or what do you use?
I’m very intrigued. If I’m reading this correctly, it shows up 21 times in this mare’s pedigree in 12 generations. But, I could be mistaken. I was using pedigree query but it was too annoying so I switched to sporthorse-data.
There is a good free French pedigree site called webpedigrees.com which has very good linebreeding information for the horses in their database. I also use sporthorse-data. The best, if you pay for it, is pedigreequery. If you are looking at a particular horse (say while contemplating purchasing or breeding), PQ is only $10 for a month.
To have 10 separate Teddy own sons and daughters would truly be unusual.
So, I am not sure if I am misinterpreting your question… you did also say that many of the Teddy sons did not stay in Ireland or the UK, but moved on. I didn’t dig into it that way… However I just snapped to the first place I could think to find some Irish TB pedigrees to dig open, the Irish National Stud.
http://irishnationalstud.ie/stud/1/stallions/
He is certainly in there!
Although when looking at a list of Teddy’s sons, I only see 4 who were UK bred and 0 Irish… and I didn’t dig on past there…
The Irish War of Independence started in 1919 and was followed by the Irish Civil War that lasted until 1923 and political changes continued turbulently until the 1930s… Teddy left France for the US in 1932… perhaps it was unrelated to the horse? Just tossing it out there… I really have no idea!
Probably the two most influential lines to Teddy in the UK/Ire until the recent Danzig/Danehill (both through the dam line) tsunami were Borealis and Owen Tudor–and Borealis was not a particularly good racing stud, although he’s wonderful for sport.
But at least 75% of the Teddy comes there from the US. The rest comes from France. He’s in Crepello through a French mare, for instance. He’s in Relko tail Male. He’s in Djebel through Loika’s dam.
Still missing one somewhere, but I’ve got:
It’s all far back though. Closest is 7th generation I think.
Curious. Hope I end up with her and see what she’s like!
Could you, would you PM me the pedigree? I’ve never seen Shred before, but all the rest except for the French Aurora are famous.
Sent you a PM
When I look at Teddy and think sport horses, it’s good to remember that his sire, Bay Ronald, is also the sire of Dark Ronald, who is the main stay of most of the Hampton line in sport horse breeding. Not discounting Teddy, and you’d find him in this country, of course, more than Dark Ronald. Holstein, I think, made a point of going back to Dark Ronald. I think most of the Hampton line would be good for sport, but the question that is interesting to me, is why Dark Ronald was so very, very successful in sport horse breeding in Europe, rather than Teddy. And really, what was it about Bay Ronald that he got two very important sons in sport horse breeding?
In other words, not discounting Teddy, but in my reading and research, it’s Dark Ronald who stands out as one of the main TB engines for many of the sport horse breeds.
I would also wonder if Teddy, having the Hampton line, which they already had in England, and two crosses of Bend Or, was seen as just another one of those, and therefore, one they were willing to let go of? Or did he find something in the cross to the French TB, that kicked the flame?
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