TB pedigree thought

[vineyridge]

Actually Bay Ronald was Teddy’s damsire, which is probably why the Germans were willing to use Asterus as much as they did in sport horse breeding. The Brits had Gainsborough, a Bay Ronald grandson who was four years younger than Teddy. And Gainsborough was a very good and popular sire. Son-in-Law was the exact same age as Teddy and he was also a Bay Ronald grandson.

Ajax, Teddy’s sire, was a very, very popular sire in France.

[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7314918]
When I look at Teddy and think sport horses, it’s good to remember that his sire, Bay Ronald, is also the sire of Dark Ronald, who is the main stay of most of the Hampton line in sport horse breeding. Not discounting Teddy, and you’d find him in this country, of course, more than Dark Ronald. Holstein, I think, made a point of going back to Dark Ronald. I think most of the Hampton line would be good for sport, but the question that is interesting to me, is why Dark Ronald was so very, very successful in sport horse breeding in Europe, rather than Teddy. And really, what was it about Bay Ronald that he got two very important sons in sport horse breeding?

In other words, not discounting Teddy, but in my reading and research, it’s Dark Ronald who stands out as one of the main TB engines for many of the sport horse breeds.

I would also wonder if Teddy, having the Hampton line, which they already had in England, and two crosses of Bend Or, was seen as just another one of those, and therefore, one they were willing to let go of? Or did he find something in the cross to the French TB, that kicked the flame?[/QUOTE]

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Actually Bay Ronald was Teddy’s damsire

Of course…thanks for the correction. :o

For example, the TB Cottage Son goes back to Dark Ronald and has another cross of Hampton in the dam line, plus two crosses to Rock Sand.

Ladykiller, while not so concentrated, has Gainsborough and Son-in-law; Marlon also had those two and while others are present in the pedigrees, they usually kept some connection to the Hampton or Dark Ronald line. Even Cor de la Bryére carries a couple crosses to Dark Ronald, including Teddy in the back and is tail mail to Dark Ronald. They kept those lines in their stock, along with some others, of course but the one I think was predominant is the Dark Ronald/Bay Ronald scheme.

I look to the Hampton line and in particular, the Dark Ronald branch, as being quite influential for sport.

So what I mean is, I think Bay Ronald is the interesting one, as he’s also tail mail for Gainsborough.

[beowulf]

One of the reasons I picked up my guy was because of the influx of Teddy in his pedigree. I pieced apart his pedigree before I went to see him - I really like the look of his line - “my type” of horse if you ask me.

Mine has Teddy almost as much as yours, Weixiao - almost EVERY single horse in his 5th generation has Teddy. I think all but four? And of the four or so, they all seemed to share the same couple of names - The Tetrarch, Chaucer, Gainsborough. However, I wonder if they were trying to keep Teddy’s family in mind - my gelding has a LOT of Bay Ronald in the pedigrees of the horses that do not have Teddy - either through Gainsborough or other means… He also seems to have a fair amount of Dark Ronald in him!

Anna Bolena (2x)
Asterus
Tedmelia
Sun Teddy
Bull Dog (7x)
La Troienne (5x)
Sir Gallahad (5x)
Case Ace
Couer A Couer
Betty

Interestingly, one mare in his pedigree (Our Jackie) is not only sex-balanced to Teddy, but also linebreed 3x to him through Bulldog, Sir Gallahad, and Tedmelia. Since I got my gelding I entertained the notion that it is a “shame” he is not a mare!!

In summation, the further I go back the more linebreeding I see to the three same ancestors - Bend Or, Galopin, and St Simon. Nearly every one of his ancestors is linebred to those three. I wonder what his ancestor loss is…

I also wonder how he will hold up for sport. He is sidelined with a racing injury now that he was surprisingly sound on (a collateral ligament tear, none the less!!). Even the eyes on COTH missed it in his jog video - and I did too… He has a fairly sound pedigree, so maybe this will help him…

Weixiao, do you mind PMing me the horse? I’m not looking, dw, just want to compare/contrast.

[Fred]

This is the pedigree of my old mare’s 2nd dam, Bold Fay

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+fay.

109 starts.
2 crosses to Bay Ronald, once through Teddy, the other through Dark Ronald.

I’m not the expert viney is, but I do love to see all those old names.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Actually, there is more than just the Bay Ronald through Hampton. Hampton was by Lord Clifton, who was by Newminster. Newminster sired Hermit, which you see a bit too.

Bay Ronald is probably more influential in Holsteiner breeding but there is also some of the same lines going on when you see Hermit in a pedigree, too.

But then again, Newminster is getting quite a ways back there…

[Linny]

Regardless of his influence for sport, the main reason Teddy is less often seen here is because his own sons were not able to establish a sireline that lasted. Sir Gallahad was a champion sire but Gallant Fox was a total loss other than Omaha who was himself a poor sire. The line looked like it might go one via Bull Dog to Bull Lea but none of the latter sired sires. The preponderance of Teddy today in the US is either through Danzig (dam is tail male to Teddy) or horses that have distant connections to Calumet in the heyday of Bull Lea, as they kept and bred many of his daughters. Oddly the mare Dog Show has turn up in 2-3 pedigrees I’ve looked up in the last week. She’s a Bull Dog mare. Her daughter Best of Show was the connection in all cases. She’s got a very interesting page. http://www.pedigreequery.com/best+of+show
When bred to an obscure son of Mahmoud, Billings, she doubles up the Teddy, the Plucky Leige and the Fair Play and somehow almost 60 years later, I’m researching horses and she shows up, tale female, more than once in a week. If LaTroienne shows up 100x a day, fine, but Best of Show, by Billings?

ETA: Forgot to mention that though Native, Dancer and Northern Dancer are Teddy-free, Raise a Native does have Teddy in the same way Danzig does, tail male to his dam.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;7316400]
Actually, there is more than just the Bay Ronald through Hampton. Hampton was by Lord Clifton, who was by Newminster. Newminster sired Hermit, which you see a bit too.

Bay Ronald is probably more influential in Holsteiner breeding but there is also some of the same lines going on when you see Hermit in a pedigree, too.

But then again, Newminster is getting quite a ways back there…[/QUOTE]

For clarity’s sake I think you mean Clifden, not Clifton. Easy thing to misspell, too.

[vineyridge]

What happened was that Dark Ronald got sent to Germany and became the foundation sire of the modern German TB which had an unusual gene pool with many Eastern European lines as well as Western European ones and is usually considered a different strain from the rest of the international TB world. Because the creators of the German WB mostly used TBs who were already in Germany (and German Bred) in the improvement of their native mares (as they had always done), the fact that German TB breeders based their breeding on Dark Ronald and Bay Ronald is why those lines are also found in such quantity in WBs. Basically the WB breeders used the TB males that were available and not good race sires. Of course many of the founder TBs in Germany and WBs were imported for the royal studs. The half brothers Ard Patrick and Galtee More were sent to Germany and also foundations for the German TB and WB.

Dark Ronald had only TB get; as did Ard Patrick and Galtee More. It was their sons and grandsons who were bred to WBs.

There was a huge amount of the early Pocahontas imported as well and used in both German TB and WB breeding. Stockwell was particularly important in Hanover, I believe; but they also used the Dark Ronald descendants as their modern base. IIRC, in the older lines, Fling is inbred to a King Tom (Pocahontas son) and Alnok was Stockwell (Pocahontas son) tail male. Fling was, however, tail male Matchem.

There is a good bit of Herod and Matchem in the very early WBs as well, and the stallion Chevalier d’Industrie was part of their foundation.

Once the WB foundation was set with Bay Ronald, most later imports especially for WB breeding were heavily Bay Ronald to nick with the mare base.

As far as I know --except for a stallion in Japan whose line is now, I believe, extinct, the last tail male Hermit TB stallion was used for WB breeding in Holland. The Dutch have never been as Bay Ronald centric as Germany in their TB improvement sires.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

For clarity’s sake I think you mean Clifden, not Clifton.

:no: Ooops, I did it again.

I think Linny had a good point. Teddy was unable to get a sire line that lasted, whereas Dark Ronald seemed to have accomplished that- in two venues.

Also, when I look at the two:
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/DarkRonald.html
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Teddy.html

I see more the sport horse type in DR. YMMV.

While Dark Ronald went to Germany, he did not have success there just because he was the only thing available. The breeders in Holstein would not keep introducing that blood just because it was TB- it had to be doing something for them. He was apparently successful on two fronts, TB breeding in Germany, and as a cross for the mare base in Holstein.

And it seems to be the Holsteiner that is used a lot in other stud books, like the Dutch. So while the Dutch may not be as Dark Ronald centric, he’s there because they do dip into that Holsteiner gene pool from time to time.

I don’t discount other lines, all I’m saying is that Dark Ronald would not appear as much as he does simply because he was a TB in Germany. They tried others but that blood seems to have done something for them.

[amastrike]

Both of my horses have Teddy 13 times. Lots of Sir Gallahad…

[vineyridge]

I do disagree, Catsdorule. Bay Ronald/Dark Ronald is just as important in Germany registries other than Holstein because of his German TB descendants… It’s true that Holstein did import Dark Ronald descendants from the UK/Ire, but it’s probable that the reason they did so is because the German WB was created with German TBs which are heavily infused with Dark Ronald. More German TBs (with Dark Ronald/Bay Ronald blood) are still used by the Registries than imports. It’s certainly true that his blood worked well with the German light agricultural mare base, but the reason that they used him is that his blood was there. It’s just like the TBs used in QHs are American second raters as far as TB racing goes. But they are here. The great racers are too valuable here and in all the other TB racing countries, including Germany, to waste on WB breeding.

Of course, once they found out how well his blood worked with their mares, they would import that blood for breeding WBs as well as use their homebreds.

The Trakehners are very different, I believe. They are not as Dark Ronald centric as the other German registries, AFAIK.

The Dutch Holstein import mania is very recent. Before that, they imported quite a few TB stallions from the UK/Ire, and those were not Dark Ronald line.

[Linny]

Any WB or sport breeder looking to use the blood of a certain line, Bay Ronald, Bold Ruler, Giant’s Causeway are typically looking to well bred sons that didn’t race well but because of the breeding have been given a chance. If a stallion has many sons and grandsons, especially if they resemble the originator of the line there will be chances for sport or non TB breeders to get them. There is much to be said for access. I’d be hard pressed to think that a US breeder in the 40’s or 50’s would have had as much access to Teddy blood as the WB breeder in Germany did to Bay Ronald a few decades earlier. Bay Ronald was ubiquitous in Germany in a way Teddy wasn’t here. Since it takes stallions (and their 40 or so foals a year in the 50’s) to create ubiquity, a sire has to have sons and grandsons worthy of stud. One might say that US breeders of TB for sport missed the chance to breed to Teddy’s sons/grandsons. Since records related to TB performance are racing related, it’s probable that any of his successful hunters or jumpers were never identified by pedigree.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

I really did imply that Dark Ronald ended up in a lot of other registries. And
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rittersporn
The sire of Ramzes, was another used. So it wasn’t just that Dark Ronald happened to end up in Germany. Certainly, there were other lines.

And of course, the top of the TB’s are going to be used for racing.

But you don’t go searching abroad, which the breeder’s did, to bring back more of the same blood, just because it’s TB. It’s having the effect you want. Sure, DR happened to end up in Germany. But breeder’s didn’t happen to go abroad to get more of the blood just because it was already there- it produced the result they wanted when they first used it and it continued to produce for them. It may have been happenstance that DR blood was first used, but if it didn’t do what they wanted, they would not have hunted more of it down.

What DR did, was influence the modern sport horse, while still being a valuable racing sire.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Linny, it was Bay Ronald’s son, Dark Ronald, who was brought to Germany. But, if I read correctly, Bay Ronald did spend time in France, so perhaps another base for his blood to come through.

For anyone still interested in the background, at least in Holsteiner breeding, here are some articles that might be of interest:

You have to scroll quite a ways down on this page to find how Dark Ronald was acquired, and this author says von Oettingen influenced the work of Tesio:

http://classicchampionthoroughbreds.blogspot.com/2012/07/book-reviews-burchard-von-oettingen.html

[I]After the establishment of the Royal Stud, select English Thoroughbred and Arabian stallions were purchased and added to the breed. One of von Oettingen’s crowning achievements for the improvement of the Royal Stud was the purchase in 1913 of the English-bred Thoroughbred Dark Ronald for £25,000 (about $40,000). It was, definitely, money well spent as Dark Ronald became a foundation stallion of the Royal Stud and one of the most influential sires in the history of Germany.

Dark Ronald sired the German Derby winner Herold, and his sire line produced other notable Thoroughbreds such as Alchimist, Birkhahn, Surumu, and Acatenan*go, all of whom were classic champions and important sires. In all, the sire line of Dark Ronald has produced 25 German Derby winners, and his influence has even recently been seen in the United States—as Acatenango is the broodmare sire of Animal Kingdom, winner of the 2011 Kentucky Derby and Eclipse Champion Three-Year-Old Male.

In addition to becoming a tremendous influence on the German Thoroughbred, the sire line of Dark Ronald also is a powerful worldwide influence on the European Warmblood. The highly regarded Moorlands-Totilas, viewed by many as one of the greatest horses in the history of dressage and a triple gold medalist at the 2010 World Equestrian Games in Lexington, Kentucky, is a direct sire-line descendent of Dark Ronald (fig. 4.6). In the show jumping world, Dark Ronald is a direct sire-line ancestor of the deceased jumping champion and influential improvement sire Cor de la Bryére and his sons Caletto I, Caletto II, Caletto III, Calypso I, Calypso II, Calypso III, Calypso IV, Corrado I, Corde-Star, and Cordalmé Z.
[/I]

This article about Bay Ronald, although the author says Hampton was a hurdler, that’s not really correct. They did try him on hurdles, but briefly, it seems:

http://www.horseplanet.net/Sport-Horse.asp?id=14026

William Micklem on the five TB gods of WB breeding:

http://www.horseplay.ie/news/riding-resource/william-micklem-even-mark-todd-can-be-led-astray-part-3.asp

And this series with interviews from Holsteiner breeders. There’s one where the problem with Northern Dancer lines is discussed, as being Quarter Horse type and not what they need:

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-1/

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-2/

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/09/the-holsteiner-part-3/

There was an article, quite a while ago, by CM Frank, I think, on Bay Ronald, and I’m not sure the second site listed didn’t come from part of that, but I’m not sure.

I hope people enjoy these histories and view points. I by no means want to imply that Bay Ronald was the only TB influence. Just that German breeders generally know who and what they want woven into their horses pedigrees and have proven it works.

[vineyridge]

I have the CM Franks article on Bay Ronald saved and will email them to anyone who’d like to read them. One is Dark Ronald and the other is on Bayardo. It might take a while to find it, but I know I have it.

One rather interesting factoid is that both Bayardo and Son-In-Law were true long distance stayers with not much speed. Hewitt describes them both as Plodders.

[LookmaNohands]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7314045]
I’d say that’s pretty exceptional. Especially if you have doubles to any of them. IIRC, the most Teddy that I can recall is 19 lines in one mare.[/QUOTE]

If this is good–how is it good? Do you mean for producing good athletic babies? I have a mare with many crosses to Teddy. But the only people who seem to appreciate that are you COTH folks. I thought it would help in the marketing of her but sadly it has not. I guess the general public has not caught on to this yet?

[Catsdorule-sigh]

I thinks some of us are sort of pedigree and history geeks.

I think the people who might care are those looking to breed either TB’s for sport or mares for WB crosses. But it’s really mostly academic, as the lines discussed here are pretty far back. That said, you’d probably rather a horse had as much of the “old” sport TB blood as possible, rather than the newer racing blood. It would take a pretty special TB mare to catch the eye of a WB breeder. They are out there, but I would not call them common. And you’d want that mare to have some career behind her to prove that it’s more than just pedigree.

Some of the history of TB’s used in sport horse breeding is what you see in parts of this thread. But I don’t know if there are any new TB’s making a splash that WB breeders are excited about today. I do remember there being some discussion about needing to find more because that TB infusion was necessary from time to time, but that was a good 20 years ago.

What I do know, from experience, is that even with a good sport-type TB mare, with mostly a fair pedigree for sport, what was produced in that F-1 cross was a throw back to the one, shorter, kinda QH type TB stallion as one of the grandparents. So at least that far back, I’d pay attention to the type of TB in the pedigree.

But really, with a TB mare, it’s good to have that kind of pedigree, but what really matters is the mare herself and what she throws and then what her daughters throw. That’s where the WB breeders of Europe have the knowledge. And they seem to prefer to have the TB be the stallion, when used.

YMMV

[Lord_Helpus]

If Northern Dancer is devoid of Teddy, Mr. Prospector is inbred to him 4 x 5. Yet I do not like to see Mr P in a sport horse pedigree. If Mr P shows up in a successful sport horse pedigree it is usually through the mare bred to Mr. P.

Many good horses are ND on top and Mr P on the bottom (since the combination of those genes resulted in many good race horses.) But the good sport horses resulting from this combination are often there because of strong sport horse damlines.

Fappiano is an example of one such mating. While his sire is Mr P, his dam is by Dr Fager/Rough 'n Tumble. I love to see Fappiano in a sport horse pedigree because I love Dr. Fager, not because I think that Mr. P’s genes have added much value to quality jumping horses.

Whatever sport horse genes that Teddy brings to the table must have been snuffed out in the generations between him and Mr. P.

Similarily (sp?) if Storm Cat is found in a sport horse pedigree, the genes probably come though his dam Terlingua who adds Princequillo, Crimson Satan, Eight Thirty and Menow to the genetic make up.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7325903]
Similarily (sp?) if Storm Cat is found in a sport horse pedigree, the genes probably come though his dam Terlingua who adds Princequillo, Crimson Satan, Eight Thirty and Menow to the genetic make up.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. How do you feel about Pioneering? Yay for the Terlingua, boo for the Mr P?

I picked up a Pioneering from the track this summer. He’s really turning into a lovely horse. He bowed two tendons, so he’s been on the rehab track, but from what I can see in the field, he’s a floaty, big mover with a dressage frame. I spoke with a man who worked with Pioneering at Overbrook and has raced many of his get, and he’s got nothing but nice things to say about their temperament and soundness.

Granted, Pigs also has a really nice damline: Piggy Church

And, speaking of Teddy, he’s got 24 crosses to Teddy, 19 of those through his dam. Shame she’s disappeared.

(Wow, I have a filly with 41 crosses to Teddy?! Am I doing this right? Are we limiting to a certain number of generations? Sporthorse Database shows 23 from the sire’s side and 18 from the dam.)

[weixiao]

[QUOTE=Simkie;7326094]
Interesting. How do you feel about Pioneering? Yay for the Terlingua, boo for the Mr P?

I picked up a Pioneering from the track this summer. He’s really turning into a lovely horse. He bowed two tendons, so he’s been on the rehab track, but from what I can see in the field, he’s a floaty, big mover with a dressage frame. I spoke with a man who worked with Pioneering at Overbrook and has raced many of his get, and he’s got nothing but nice things to say about their temperament and soundness.

Granted, Pigs also has a really nice damline: Piggy Church

And, speaking of Teddy, he’s got 24 crosses to Teddy, 19 of those through his dam. Shame she’s disappeared.

(Wow, I have a filly with 41 crosses to Teddy?! Am I doing this right? Are we limiting to a certain number of generations? <a href=“http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10777711&blood=10"a=”>Sporthorse Database shows 23 from the sire’s side and 18 from the dam.)[/QUOTE]

This has been a really fascinating discussion for me.

I wondered the same thing about limiting generations when looking at crosses, for instance, if you go to pedigree query it lists 12 crosses to Teddy for that pedigree, but I think it does limit to fewer generations than sport horse-database.

Out of the two mares I just bought, both show Teddy 21 times with SHD but one shows it 11 times on PQ and the other only 6 times. The younger of the two, who is only 3, and Teddy shows up much further back in her pedigree. I believe PQ only goes through the 9th generation? I’d be curious to hear about when a line starts to be too far back to even be considered.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/running+eagle3
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pardon+this+kiss