That is how I was raised. Adding, it is also how I have raised my kids.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7129666]
Personal responsibility. You own it, you’re responsible for it.
Group transport and group holding is a large part of the inhumane aspect of horse slaughter. It’s not just the chemicals, it’s the process as well.
You know that, but you just love to play word games. I’m done playing, in any case, for the moment.[/QUOTE]
Your answer was a make believe in a perfect world response. Auctions are NOT illegal No matter how much you try and make them so. Selling to a meat person or any person is not illegal
I don’t blame you … I wouldn’t want to be held afccountable tfor views that are not well thought out
C’mon, Laura, be reasonable – since NO ONE in the US owns any guns, how can they possibly be expected to not only spend $0.25 on a bullet but track down an elusive weapon to put it in. What a horrible burden of responsibility!!!
And then you want them to deal with it and eat it themselves (which would be fine, actually)? Horrors, no, they MUST be allowed to pass the buck, not have to watch the process, then be financially rewarded for their infantile lack of ethics.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, RAWRRR!!!
:lol:
[QUOTE=Fairfax;7129674]
Your answer was a make believe in a perfect world response. Auctions are NOT illegal No matter how much you try and make them so. Selling to a meat person or any person is not illegal
I don’t blame you … I wouldn’t want to be held afccountable tfor views that are not well thought out[/QUOTE]
I don’t intend to play your little insult game.
However, if the meat man can no longer buy for meat, why would he buy the horse at the auction in the first place? So we’re back to personal responsibility. Horse doesn’t sell, owner takes it back home.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7129686]
I don’t intend to play your little insult game.
However, if the meat man can no longer buy for meat, why would he buy the horse at the auction in the first place? So we’re back to personal responsibility. Horse doesn’t sell, owner takes it back home.[/QUOTE]
That just shows you don’t know how auctions work.
Horse auctions is where horses change hands … for many reasons and purposes.
Some would like to say auctions means only kill buyers and that gives them a reason to fight auctions.
Well, no, horses that do go to slaughter thru auctions are but a percentage of them, as many others go to be used in other ways.
It is oh so handy to change the subject, from “slaughter plants are eviiiil!” to now auctions are eviiiil!".
Guess some just have to keep pushing that animal rights extremist agenda forward, don’t they, will never be satisfied until there are “no more animals in human hands and none too soon for me”.:no:
[QUOTE=wildlifer;7129680]
C’mon, Laura, be reasonable – since NO ONE in the US owns any guns, how can they possibly be expected to not only spend $0.25 on a bullet but track down an elusive weapon to put it in. What a horrible burden of responsibility!!!
And then you want them to deal with it and eat it themselves (which would be fine, actually)? Horrors, no, they MUST be allowed to pass the buck, not have to watch the process, then be financially rewarded for their infantile lack of ethics.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, RAWRRR!!!
:lol:[/QUOTE]
Snort. And if you live in NJ, you can still buy a sniper rifle and shoot the horse from almost 2 miles away.
[QUOTE=up-at-5;7129576]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3OVaCDLc9M
Paranoia, it`s how you roll. Give a listen. The words suit.Not all of them, of course:lol:[/QUOTE]
You know, even if some may be paranoid, that doesn’t mean that “they” are not after them.
Seriously, after all that has been explained, is there ANY doubt in anyone’s mind that animal rights extremist are working to eliminate all uses of animals?:eek:
Do I need to post again all the links to where they have stated just that, for those that have been living under a rock the past half century, blissfully ignorant of that obvious fact?
I don’t think I need to report to the Moderator anything.
Looks like COTH is running very well thanks to the moderating.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7129704]
That just shows you don’t know how auctions work.
Horse auctions is where horses change hands … for many reasons and purposes.
Some would like to say auctions means only kill buyers and that gives them a reason to fight auctions.
Well, no, horses that do go to slaughter thru auctions are but a percentage of them, as many others go to be used in other ways.
It is oh so handy to change the subject, from “slaughter plants are eviiiil!” to now auctions are eviiiil!".
Guess some just have to keep pushing that animal rights extremist agenda forward, don’t they, will never be satisfied until there are “no more animals in human hands and none too soon for me”.:no:[/QUOTE]
What are you yammering about? If the horse has no use other than to be sold for meat and there is no slaughter, it will not be purchased. Period. Maybe the auction houses will have to be a bit more careful to make sure they’re not stuck with horses with no sales value. I can’t see that’s a bad thing either.
[QUOTE=up-at-5;7129576]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3OVaCDLc9M
Paranoia, it`s how you roll. Give a listen. The words suit.Not all of them, of course:lol:[/QUOTE]
None as blind as the ones that refuse to see.
We went thru this during the 2007 debates that closed the slaughter plants.
I would think those pushing for those harebrained animal rights extremist agendas as “BAN slaughter or else, the heck with the consequences, there won’t be any”, will have to indeed see history repeat itself.
Too bad they didn’t learn anything the first time around.:no:
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7129686]
I don’t intend to play your little insult game.
However, if the meat man can no longer buy for meat, why would he buy the horse at the auction in the first place? So we’re back to personal responsibility. Horse doesn’t sell, owner takes it back home.[/QUOTE]
Oh. let me see…
the owner does not want it back home, that’s why he took it to the sale in the first place…
I guess he can always put it in the barn on blocks, wait for the grass to come in again…
Really…that was one of the more callous remarks so far.
[QUOTE=Nikki^;7129531]
I don’t get it. What is so horrible about horse slaughter? If the new plants are designed for horses, then what’s the freaking problem?
Don’t they have holding pens with water and hay bales?
Why can’t we use this as source of food to feed the hungry?
Oh, and if Obama is coming to save they day, think again. He signed the law restoring horse slaughter.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/30/obama-congress-restore-us-horse-slaughter-industry/[/QUOTE]
They are NOT designed for horses in the USA. They are cattle plants. As far as I can tell there is only ONE true horse slaughter plant in North America. They don’t use it as it was designed anyway as it really slows down production.
Horses have not been selectively bred for slaughter, which means their fight or flight instinct is still very much at the surface.
Then there is the transportation problem.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;7129742]
They are NOT designed for horses in the USA. They are cattle plants. As far as I can tell there is only ONE true horse slaughter plant in North America. They don’t use it as it was designed anyway as it really slows down production.
Horses have not been selectively bred for slaughter, which means their fight or flight instinct is still very much at the surface.
Then there is the transportation problem.[/QUOTE]
I know what I bolded is what animal rights extremist propaganda keeps saying, but I think that they are utterly ignorant of what cattle and horses are.:no:
No, neither horses OR cattle have “their instinct for fight or flight” altered in the manner they assume.:lol:
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7129713]
What are you yammering about? If the horse has no use other than to be sold for meat and there is no slaughter, it will not be purchased. Period. Maybe the auction houses will have to be a bit more careful to make sure they’re not stuck with horses with no sales value. I can’t see that’s a bad thing either.[/QUOTE]
Why should auction houses now be responsible for the horses i.e. training…well groomed etc Yes…they get higher prices but it is not their resonsibility.
If the person sells a poorly trained horse…they get little to no money…actually in the economy with well trained wp horses going for $500 that should still not be the responsibility of the auction house.
If you euthanize a healthy dog, cat or horse…maybe it should be, like HSUS vets are doing…REFUSED…too bad…you own it … you take care of it. I don’t care if you have been tansferred to a new job in a new country…QUIT…your animal is more important.
THAT is what you are saying.
YOU don’t want any animal killed unless it is on your terms. You would allow a rendering plant to do the killing as long as they were not greedy and the horse didn’t go for food for people…but YOU won’t pay8 them to build the chut nor will you pay for the services of an on site vet to kill the animal…if he can…with a needle.
You are like jemn…you create a mess but demand others clean it up and fix it…meanwhile…you demand laws be in place so they can’t. THAT is the agenda of an AR
[QUOTE=sunridge1;7129742]
They are NOT designed for horses in the USA. They are cattle plants. As far as I can tell there is only ONE true horse slaughter plant in North America. They don’t use it as it was designed anyway as it really slows down production.
Horses have not been selectively bred for slaughter, which means their fight or flight instinct is still very much at the surface.
Then there is the transportation problem.[/QUOTE]
kTransportation has already proven it CAN be made safe by the number of trucks coming into Canada and the reduced number of turnbacks.
Ever seen a bunch of cattle stampede? Aberdeen Angus ARE a flighty breed of cattle.
[QUOTE=sunridge1;7129742]
They are NOT designed for horses in the USA. They are cattle plants. As far as I can tell there is only ONE true horse slaughter plant in North America. They don’t use it as it was designed anyway as it really slows down production.
Horses have not been selectively bred for slaughter, which means their fight or flight instinct is still very much at the surface.
Then there is the transportation problem.[/QUOTE]
Horses have been selectively bred to accomodate humans and be trainable to the point of carrying them into battles, or hunt lions, boar or herd cattle (fighting bulls?) for tens of centuries.
People have also designed slaughter facilities for deer, elk and bison, none of which are noted for lack of flight or fight. And deer and elk have long necks, just as horses do. A simple check on google will bring up elk slaughter facilities and raisers, for instance.
My point is that facilities could be successfully designed for horse slaughter if the current models are inadequate.
Yes, transportation is another issue.
Truck inspection at weigh stations within the USA ought to be followed by more fines and closer adherence to the laws on the books. It is an enforcement issue, not necessarily a ‘tougher laws or ban’ issue.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;7129674]
Your answer was a make believe in a perfect world response. Auctions are NOT illegal No matter how much you try and make them so. Selling to a meat person or any person is not illegal …[/QUOTE]
And of course, this proposed law would make these venues illegal.
Ask yourself: Why would it be illegal to transport a horse to a slaughter facility or sell a horse to someone who then transports or sells to a slaughter facility if slaughter is NOT illegal?
Remember we already have humane transport laws that could be enforced.
Humane slaughter regulations that couldl be enforced.
This is a clear ‘back door’ way to introduce a NEXT law to make horse slaughter itself illegal.
In essence, if you are for this bill, you are for outlawing horse slaughter, no ifs, ands or buts. No: “But I’d be okay with a more humane… full drug documentation…safe hauling…”
-Just so everone is clear.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7129789]
Horses have been selectively bred to accomodate humans and be trainable to the point of carrying them into battles, or hunt lions, boar or herd cattle (fighting bulls?) for tens of centuries.
People have also designed slaughter facilities for deer, elk and bison, none of which are noted for lack of flight or fight. And deer and elk have long necks, just as horses do. A simple check on google will bring up elk slaughter facilities and raisers, for instance.
My point is that facilities could be successfully designed for horse slaughter if the current models are inadequate.
Yes, transportation is another issue.
Truck inspection at weigh stations within the USA ought to be followed by more fines and closer adherence to the laws on the books. It is an enforcement issue, not necessarily a ‘tougher laws or ban’ issue.[/QUOTE]
You won’t see it because there isn’t enough demand for horsemeat to allow for a horse SH in every state, costs for one are too high, and people don’t want one in there backyard. Only having one in just a couple of states doesn’t do anything to change the inhumane transport over long distances in crowded conditions, no vet care if injured, no food/water.
Many of us have said that if there were small abattoirs in every city/town within a few hundred miles, we’d be ok with it, but it will never happen. So what you end up with are 2 or 3 across the country and the same conditions as now.
Regarding an earlier comment by you- Rendering plants take in already dead animals. There are over 800k horses that die each yr by means other than slaughter. Rendering plants have MORE than enough horse carcasses to use without having to slaughter them to use a rendered product. In fact, there is so much supply, the rendering plants CHARGE people to pick up the body rather than pay for it.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;7129740]
Oh. let me see…
the owner does not want it back home, that’s why he took it to the sale in the first place…
I guess he can always put it in the barn on blocks, wait for the grass to come in again…
Really…that was one of the more callous remarks so far.[/QUOTE]
??
Why are you completely willing to relieve people of their personal responsibility when it comes to taking care of a horse?
[QUOTE=Abercrombie;7129802]
??
Why are you completely willing to relieve people of their personal responsibility when it comes to taking care of a horse?[/QUOTE]
What do you want a person to do with a horse he/she is unwilling/unable to keep?
Riddle me this.
You try to sell the animal.
Give it away.
It is responsible to sell animals.
I know. They should let their family starve in order to kill the horse in a manner approved by you, to the tune of several hundred dollars.
You know, selling horses is an integral part of the industry.
As breeding, boarding and training.
And killing.
No, only selling to hand picked customers, after running an in depth criminal background- and credit check is not he only way to sell.
And where would your rescue/hoarder friends get their inventory if nobody sold at a sale…or bargain hunters.
This is NOT about the care of the horse, this is about the SELLING of the horse.
Yes, y’alls can never get your story straight.
Happy to point fingers when horses are in sad shape, but denying the outlet to let those animals go - legally I might add - before things get dire.
Jumping on people who do the right thing and offering for sale, just because the tender sentiments are hurt because seller states the obvious: No grass no horse. I can only imagine the calls, messages and emails he got, no doubt from the COTH contingency, including calls to AC!
it’s part of the plan, you know: Disrupt the industry to the point where it becomes just too damn inconvenient to even bother to buy a horse.
Or don’t even bother selling. Just make sure the last S is sufficiently covered…the shut up part.
We have made greats laps and bounds to arrive at ‘irresponsible’ when a person sells a horse…
jebus, Mary and a little bit of Joseph…
[QUOTE=jetsmom;7129801]
You won’t see it because there isn’t enough demand for horsemeat to allow for a horse SH in every state, costs for one are too high, and people don’t want one in there backyard. Only having one in just a couple of states doesn’t do anything to change the inhumane transport over long distances in crowded conditions, no vet care if injured, no food/water. Many of us have said that if there were small abattoirs in every city/town within a few hundred miles, we’d be ok with it, but it will never happen. So what you end up with are 2 or 3 across the country and the same conditions as now.
Regarding an earlier comment by you- Rendering plants take in already dead animals. There are over 800k horses that die each yr by means other than slaughter. Rendering plants have MORE than enough horse carcasses to use without having to slaughter them to use a rendered product. In fact, there is so much supply, the rendering plants CHARGE people to pick up the body rather than pay for it.[/QUOTE]
Transportation over long distances in a humane fashion is possible. Horses have been transported over long distances since trailers and vans were invented.
-An enforcement issue.
Ignoring injuries/no vet care… how about offloading when discovered at weigh checkpoints, fine and euth+call the renderer, loss is a cost of doing business; no one wants the delay so will be less likely to load up injured or dangerous animals likely to injure others.
-An enforcement issue.
No food/water… Many people feed horses 2 x daily or 3 x daily. At 1 1/2 hrs access to hay/water per feed time plus 1/2 hr loading and unloading that leaves 6 hrs drive time or about 350 miles on the interstate. At 2 stops daily it would be 10 hours drive time or 550 miles. Again, additional cost as a part of doing business; and would require waystations or rental of auction lots to offload, etc.
That still leaves 1000 miles in 2 days as perfectly possible and humane.
As to charging to pick up, carcasses are on a removal deadline and the owner must have it removed. Of course that means it will cost$.
Apparently receiving money for a live horse is bad, while paying money to have a dead horse hauled off is good. I don’t agree that that should be legislated because of your choice.
If it became law that all horses must be killed by gunshot/humane bolt instead of euth; and taken to facility X for processing instead of burial, incineration, or composting for moral reasons, rather than environmental safety ones, that would also be a bad law.
Enforcement is now very poor; that means that part of end of life sequence for horses should be fixed, not a ban on the entire scenario.
You have already said some agree ‘it could be made humane if…’
Banning is a choice of solutions, not a moral obligation in order to remain on the side of welfare/anti-welfare.
