If you would like a slow motion video example of a toe flick go to http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=I6bpMurbF9U
NOTE This horse is also very capable of doing a correct extended trot and tended to score well on this movement at the shows once we had some more dressage lessons
The toe flick is caused by tension in the horse’s back.
Originally posted by JMurray:
Can someone break down this picture for me and talk about what is happening to cause this in the photo?
http://www.elpre.com/media/fotos/brcxopkl.jpg
An extended trot is supposed to be an extension of the stride of the horse. In order for that to occur, the entire frame of the horse, from tail to poll, must be allowed to extend. That is what a “lengthening of stride” is.
The toe of the horse cannot land any further ahead of the vertical line of the face of the horse, or in some cases of less collection or extension, in front of the nose of the horse. When the horse’s face is held in as in the photograph of the gray shown, and the legs are thrown forward of that vertical line, the leg must actually drop back before the toe can touch the ground again to carry weight. That is why it is an inefficient and incorrect form of an extended stride. It is a false extension.
The toe-flipping occurs because the horse is really trying to do what his rider is asking (note rider’s legs with spurs on horse’s sides), but his rider is not allowing the spine, including the neck, of the horse to extend. This also means that the flow of energy that should be being created from the rear end of the horse being fully enaged is not being allowed to come through the back of the horse into the bit and hands. The flow of energy that should be being created from back to front is being constrained and creating tension that stops the horse from “floating” into a large, full, correct long strided extended trot.
In Doris Kay Halstead’s book “Release The Potential”, she discusses the toe flick from a more mechanical perspective. She refers to the toe flick as being a product of the Symmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex.
“When the head/neck are forcibly flexed, the forelimbs will flex and the hind limbs will straighten”
“The bit [is] used to attain flexion with resulting extension shown in the trailing of the hind and compensation for avoiding buckling the front by hyperextension of the fore shown in toe curled up”
So basically, the reflex which buckles the forelegs is compensated for by hyperextending them instead. And you can actually feel the Symmetrical Tonic Neck Reflex yourself by tucking your chin in hard - your hands tuck in more. It was a really interesting read.
thanks everyone, and especially jm for keeping the conversation up and providing examples.
and thanks mbm, it was actually theresa’s site that sparked my interest in dressage to begin with a few years ago.
[QUOTE=mbm;3812221]
ETA - honeslty - if you want to work on training your eye - go to sustainable dressage and look at what she has there… very good for explaing why stuff like this happens and what is correct/incorrect.
www.sustainabledressage.com[/QUOTE]
I think that this site has contributed to some confusion in nomenclature. This site seems to be talking about “knuckling over” with the hind foot, not toe flicking. Knuckling over is when the horse’s hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn’t land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward–thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride.
Toe flicking or flipping (the way that I have always understood it) has to do with the front hooves flipping upward vertically at the furthest extension of the front leg. I don’t think that in and of itself it is a bad or a good thing. A lot of times the hind leg does not match that same extension and, then yes, the horse is not through and is out behind. A shortened neck is also, sometimes, but not always seen. Again, I think toe flipping is neutral–it can just be the maximum output of an energetic horse (where the hind legs almost match and the neck is telescoped out.)
In a really good extension if you see any flicking it’s coming through the shoulder, not the toe. There’s a lot of freedom in the shoulder because the hindquarters and abs are pushing and carrying.
Originally Posted by Tonja
[QUOTE]If by “toe flick” you are meaning the front toes of the horse are flicking to the front in the trot (so that the horse’s front shoes are visible from the front), this is caused by hyperextension of the horse’s front legs. When the horse’s energy is being blocked from traveling freely through its body, its front legs are flung forward and the legs hyperextend, instead of being carried forward in a smooth arc.
When the front toes are ‘flicking’, the hind toes are usually also flipping to the back (pushing instead of carrying) http://www.ridingart.com/toe-flip.htm
Eclectic Horseman wrote:
I think that this site has contributed to some confusion in nomenclature. This site seems to be talking about “knuckling over” with the hind foot, not toe flicking. Knuckling over is when the horse’s hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn’t land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward–thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride.[/QUOTE]
“Knuckling over” with the hind foot and “toe flipping” with the hind foot are two very different things. The “toe flip” illustration on the website clearly shows hind toe “flipping” which is typical when the hind legs are pushing instead of carrying.
A horse that is engaged and carrying will not “show its shoes” to the front nor will it “show its shoes” out behind.
Then what is the difference between knuckling over and “hind toe flipping?” If there is no substantive difference, then it proves my point which was only that the nomenclature is confusing.
Eclectic Horseman wrote:
Then what is the difference between knuckling over and “hind toe flipping?” If there is no substantive difference, then it proves my point which was only that the nomenclature is confusing.
You describe “knuckling over” as when the “horse’s hoof breaks over too early (before completing the stride.) The hoof doesn’t land flat so it cannot dig in to the ground and propel the horse forward–thus it lacks impulsion. The horse may drag its toe along the ground before it becomes flat again in the stance phase of the stride.”
What I am describing as toe flipping is what happens after the hind hoof lands on the ground normally. Instead of carrying the horse forward and then recoiling, the hind legs are trailing, so the hind hooves flip backward and upward (exposing the hind shoe) before recoiling. A ‘toe flip’ will be repeated with each step, until the horse engages. The ‘toe flip’ will go away when the horse works from behind.
[QUOTE=Tonja;3812024]
A pirouette that look likes a series of mini-rears is called a ‘rearouette’ :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol::lol::eek::eek::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Oh. I thought that was just called traveling “out behind.”
Eclectic Horseman wrote:
Oh. I thought that was just called traveling “out behind.”
The hind toe flip is a part of traveling ‘out behind’.
It’s often a sign of tight shoulders - rather properly extending the leg from the shoulders, the leg hyperextends all by itself.
Thanks for the explanations! This was really interesting.
To add confusion from a beginner…‘toe flick’ is often talked about as being desireable in Arabian sporthorses. Discuss.
Who says that? For what arabian sport horse event would that be?
I have been to sport horse nationals a couple of times as a spectator and you are right I saw that a lot in the in hand classes after they have been all jazzed up. They do flick!
To add confusion from a beginner…‘toe flick’ is often talked about as being desireable in Arabian sporthorses. Discuss.
Its as incorrect in the Arab world as anywhere.
The trouble is alot of the top horses have a tendancy to do it, as well as having exagerated incorrect foreleg movement as it all looks ‘fancy’.
Until top riders/horses are marked down for this the lower level riders will always be confused as they are being told one thing and seeing another.
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