And a show horse “snort” is not huffing and puffing…
No, I have not ever been to a walking horse show. However, there is plenty of online media availalbe with which to view them.
A snort is one thing, heaving sides is entriely another. Or do you think that’s normal in the show ring? Heads up: it’s NOT normal.
Anyway, you can contradict whatever I say because you like this type of horse movement. It’s the methods by which this type of movement is achieved that so many people object to–no matter what you say.
It’s the same as any other abuse used to make show horses.
Breathing heavy after an extensive work out is normal… In the ring these horses give it their all, and exert themselves… They don’t just piddle around the ring dragging their feet and going along lazily… They put forth effort and use their limbs… That requires effort, and lots of it, the result is breathing heavy… Breathing heavy is not abuse… Nor is exersizing the horse to that point…
[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6687804]
Breathing heavy after an extensive work out is normal… In the ring these horses give it their all, and exert themselves… They don’t just piddle around the ring dragging their feet and going along lazily… They put forth effort and use their limbs… That requires effort, and lots of it, the result is breathing heavy… Breathing heavy is not abuse… Nor is exersizing the horse to that point…[/QUOTE]
Oh my. The show horses don’t even travel 1/4 mile and they are exhausted and sweating profusely. You don’t see that much sweat on a race horse after galloping one mile
Correct–breathing heavy is not abuse. However, there is something wrong with a horse that can’t go around a ring one full circle without frothing with sweat and breathing like a train
Just on the point of equine fitness and fatigue (and also illustrates my point about giving a break when asking extreme collection) check out this video that was posted on the Dressage forum:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=508096182548138
There is no doubt this horse is working (not piddling around) throughout this test. I am not holding this out as an example of how TWH should move: I get that the required gaits are different. But here is a horse that is showing tremendous collection, extension, brilliance and obedience without being completely exhausted. At the end, he looks like he could do it again and he’s completely relaxed.
[QUOTE=Dispatcher;6687982]
Oh my. The show horses don’t even travel 1/4 mile and they are exhausted and sweating profusely. You don’t see that much sweat on a race horse after galloping one mile
Correct–breathing heavy is not abuse. However, there is something wrong with a horse that can’t go around a ring one full circle without frothing with sweat and breathing like a train[/QUOTE]
Often times a race horse doesn’t get to finish the show—he has broken a leg or two.
I live nears several race tracks, and on occassion go, and I don’t think that I have ever been to a race track that I didn’t see bad injuries. Talk about abuse to horses! There it is!
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6686382]
It would apprear there are many who would consider you to be neither a Southern Belle nor a Southern Gentleman.
[B]Good Grammar and Bad Manners by Melissa Donovan[/B
]“To me, the whole reason for practicing good grammar is to show respect for the craft and for one’s readers. Publicly correcting other writers with a berating tone is pretty contrary. Why bother with good grammar if you’re going to run around insulting other people with bad manners?”
People who correct other peoples spelling online?
Are there any worse mongs in the history of humanity? Do they think they’re being clever, or something? Especially when they do it in response to someone they’re debating with, to try and prove a point.
Your post was just petty.
And I … get called…mean…yee gads…[/QUOTE]
No one ever accused me of being a lady LOL The number of sh!ts I do not give can be counted upon NO fingers about whether or not you approve of my corrections.
If a person wants to be taken seriously online, they should at least have a good grasp of spelling, esp. if they are trying to come in here and convince us all that they are knowledgable in the subject at hand.
I’ve had first hand experience with the TWH Big Lick and all the bad and it didn’t take me long as a young woman to figure out that what I was being taught to do and to accept as “normal” within the breed was wrong. Even though it meant walking away from a trainer who took me seriously (a rare commodity IME) and a job I desperately needed in order to keep myself fed.
A horse should not BLEED when a shoe is thrown. Simple. A shoe should not be so heavy that bands are needed to keep it on. Simple. A horse should not be expected to perform how these horses are expected to perform. Simple.
I have put my own hard earned time and money into this fight ever since discovering first hand what goes on in the TWH show barns and I am sick and tired of people trying to cover it up, so pardon my snark when yet another “fan” of the Big Lick comes on here to be a part of the action.
The problem I think boils down to the fact that if the people involved in this industry in any way, shape, or form, actually ADMIT to the cruelties inherent in it, then they also have to ADMIT to one or both of these things:
A) That they are COMPLICENT in the abuse in some manner- whether it be that they are a professional trainer, groom, farrier, vet, judge, DQP, etc.
or
B) That people they love or respect are COMPLICENT in the abuse- whether that person be a father, brother, cousin, spouse, in-law, friend, fellow church-goer, etc.
No one wants to believe that either they or their loved ones can be so cruel as to abuse these horses, but the Big Lick is inherently cruel, whether you or anyone else believes it or not. I’ve seen it, I’ve lived it…
The more the Walking Horse World changes the more it stays the same.
All of the assertions from BD (and his cohorts) are exactly what I heard in the late 1980s when we bought our first Walker. I was skeptical when I attended my first Big Lick show, but green as grass, so I bought into the whole line of “excuses” for what I observed.
Then I moved to TN and got the Full Dose. Again, all the “experts” told me that this was not a problem, these horses were bred for what I was seeing, that a horse that was exhausted after a 10 min. rail class was normal, etc. Since I was still green I believed the experts.
Then I met some folks with a different approach. I began to learn about equine biomechanics. I began to learn about equine anatomy. And how to properly condition a horse. This lead me to the epiphany that virtually everything I was ever told about Big Lick horses was a lie. Not just a difference of opinion. Not just an alternative viewpoint. But a LIE.
Fast forward to today and it’s deja vu all over again.
And, now, an outside observer can see why support for HR 6388 is the only way to end the systematized cruelty of the Big Lick horse.
G.
[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6681647]
What REALLY happened was that a horse that was showing, stepped on its front pad, same type as Arabs, American Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Morgans etc… Only the TWH has a larger/taller one. [/QUOTE]
They are NOT the same – as the stacks many TWH wear are extreme – very very tall, and require a band which further damages the hoof / allows for more significant injury. NOT the same.
No, the horse did not “step on itself” it stepped on those ghastly stacked pads. I have worked some large show barns (eventing and h/j) and I have had many a horse throw a keg shoe, I have NEVER witnessed a lost shoe that resulted in blood, or the horse losing its toe. Not once! With keg shoes, the horse tends to grab the heel, the clinches lift (because you do not use too many nails, and you do not shoe with clenches that are too long – you WANT the shoe to come off with damaging the hoof if the horse catches the shoe) the nails straighten, and the shoe pulls off.
How is this possible with stacked pads and bands? How does a horse SAFELY “lose a shoe” when they overreach? Or do you just hope that they never catch one of those huge stacks with a rear toe – and rip off part of their foot?
[QUOTE=Dispatcher;6687714]
No, I have not ever been to a walking horse show. However, there is plenty of online media availalbe with which to view them.
A snort is one thing, heaving sides is entriely another. Or do you think that’s normal in the show ring? Heads up: it’s NOT normal.
Anyway, you can contradict whatever I say because you like this type of horse movement. It’s the methods by which this type of movement is achieved that so many people object to–no matter what you say.
It’s the same as any other abuse used to make show horses.[/QUOTE]
My two flat-shod horses startsnorting the minute I take them out of their stalls. As a matter of fact, my one gelding snorts with every shake of his head when he is under saddle. AAHHH, you do know that TWH’s are suppose to shake their heads…or maybe you don’t know that. Now you know something new!
:yes:
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6688505]
The more the Walking Horse World changes the more it stays the same.
All of the assertions from BD (and his cohorts) are exactly what I heard in the late 1980s when we bought our first Walker. I was skeptical when I attended my first Big Lick show, but green as grass, so I bought into the whole line of “excuses” for what I observed.
Then I moved to TN and got the Full Dose. Again, all the “experts” told me that this was not a problem, these horses were bred for what I was seeing, that a horse that was exhausted after a 10 min. rail class was normal, etc. Since I was still green I believed the experts.
Then I met some folks with a different approach. I began to learn about equine biomechanics. I began to learn about equine anatomy. And how to properly condition a horse. This lead me to the epiphany that virtually everything I was ever told about Big Lick horses was a lie. Not just a difference of opinion. Not just an alternative viewpoint. But a LIE.
Fast forward to today and it’s deja vu all over again.
And, now, an outside observer can see why support for HR 6388 is the only way to end the systematized cruelty of the Big Lick horse.
G.[/QUOTE]
:yes: Hoooray G!! Stomping the stands here in Florida:yes:
As an alternative viewpoint on the subject… If a person is involved in a horse sport in which a high percentage of the participants were abusive to the horse in order to achieve the desired results- and if that abuse could not be adequately policed and stopped- and if that person was a true lover of horses, not just the sport, wouldn’t the RIGHT thing to do be to just stop the sport altogether? That way, even if you were not an abuser, you wouldn’t be just looking the other way while someone else abused their horse so that you could still participate in your sport? Is it not extremely selfish to be willing to allow that to still go on - and you KNOW it does in spite of the meager efforts of the industry. If you love the breed more than the sport then why not find a fair and ethical way to showcase it that is for the good of all, instead of just for the few that follow the rules?
[QUOTE=frugalannie;6688036]
Just on the point of equine fitness and fatigue (and also illustrates my point about giving a break when asking extreme collection) check out this video that was posted on the Dressage forum:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=508096182548138
There is no doubt this horse is working (not piddling around) throughout this test. I am not holding this out as an example of how TWH should move: I get that the required gaits are different. But here is a horse that is showing tremendous collection, extension, brilliance and obedience without being completely exhausted. At the end, he looks like he could do it again and he’s completely relaxed.[/QUOTE]
Great link - loved watching it!
[QUOTE=cordial;6688717]
My two flat-shod horses startsnorting the minute I take them out of their stalls. As a matter of fact, my one gelding snorts with every shake of his head when he is under saddle. AAHHH, you do know that TWH’s are suppose to shake their heads…or maybe you don’t know that. Now you know something new![/QUOTE]
Yes, I know that. And I’m not talking about a snort. I’m talking about intense heavy breathing with sides heaving.
[QUOTE=Rapaloosa;6688778]
As an alternative viewpoint on the subject… If a person is involved in a horse sport in which a high percentage of the participants were abusive to the horse in order to achieve the desired results- and if that abuse could not be adequately policed and stopped- and if that person was a true lover of horses, not just the sport, wouldn’t the RIGHT thing to do be to just stop the sport altogether? That way, even if you were not an abuser, you wouldn’t be just looking the other way while someone else abused their horse so that you could still participate in your sport? Is it not extremely selfish to be willing to allow that to still go on - and you KNOW it does in spite of the meager efforts of the industry. If you love the breed more than the sport then why not find a fair and ethical way to showcase it that is for the good of all, instead of just for the few that follow the rules?[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y
Forget it. You can’t reason with someone who would do this or allow others to do this to a two year old.
I and everyone else knew what you were talking about, Dispatcher. The stacked folks like to twist stuff to exhaustion. But we are not tired of this fight - only tired of the law taking too long to change.
But change is coming.
We will all be snorty snortin, clackitying teethin, ear floppin, deep stridin, head nodin all the way to final extinction of the stacked chained crowd.
Amen.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6689718]
I and everyone else knew what you were talking about, Dispatcher. The stacked folks like to twist stuff to exhaustion. But we are not tired of this fight - only tired of the law taking too long to change.
But change is coming.
We will all be snorty snortin, clackitying teethin, ear floppin, deep stridin, head nodin all the way to final extinction of the stacked chained crowd.
Amen.[/QUOTE]
Boy, do they ever.
love this!
[QUOTE=Dispatcher;6687035]
But remember, It’s all ok. The big lick folks see shoes and partial hooves pulled off a lot. Also remember, “many of them” are not serious.
I don’t find it OK, but I guess if you see it often enough, one can get “conditioned” into thinking it’s no big deal. Frightening, really, that people can think like that.[/QUOTE]
This… Nothing good about the stacks, nothing good about “tweaking” the foot to enhance the gait. Like everything that humans touch, it goes to extreme. Sad…
Breathing heavy after an extensive work out is normal… In the ring these horses give it their all, and exert themselves… They don’t just piddle around the ring dragging their feet and going along lazily… They put forth effort and use their limbs… That requires effort, and lots of it, the result is breathing heavy… Breathing heavy is not abuse… Nor is exersizing the horse to that point…
Explain endurance horses then.
Field Hunters.
Speed equitation horses.
Haute Ecole.
Matadore or Picadore horses.
Eventers on cross country courses.
CDE horses.
Polo ponies.
Far more effort. Far longer time competing. Far less lather and heaving.
Horses are capable of being conditioned and trained up to be able to handle these levels of physical activity in sport without any of the lather and heaving seen in a BL horse.
BL horses aren’t capable of being conditioned to be in correct physical condition because:
The horse cannot be worked on conditioning rides while stacked and packed.
The horse is kept stalled unless ridden due to it’s shoe packages.
The animal is underdeveloped and then asked to exert effort on painful limbs and feet in a position nature and physics disallow.
Gaited TWHs are wonderful animals. But the Big Lick has bastardized what they can do to the point of it being detrimental in ANY form for the animal. All disciplines have their morons who use abusive methods to achieve a ribbon. Only Big Lick as a discipline is required to have a painful animal doing something completely unnatural to a degree that’s ridiculous. To compare it to other disciplines you’d have to expand those disciplines to a ridiculous degree also.
Misty Blue, there’s also the stress of an abnormal posture and discomfort that likely adds to the apparent exhaustion of the Big lick horses.
