Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[WalkInTheWoods]

Here is what happened in Owingsville KY in 2008. USDA made a surprise visit and the dust was thick as trucks and trailers left the show grounds ! So you know they were all not in compliance. There are small local shows all throughout the south that have big lick classes. These horses are not the calibre to show at Celebration.

“Rogers said that USDA inspectors arrived Thursday for the last two days of the four-day show, in which 500 to 550 horses are typically shown. After the inspectors arrived, only 40 were shown. Hundreds of entrants turned their horse vans around and left.”

Here is the article:
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/erbe/2008/07/09/the-sadistic-treatment-of-tennessee-walking-horses

eta - michaleenflynn - this was in response to your question about numbers of BLers. i bet the number is staggering.

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6324679]
There’s no way to know. The process begins with “colt packages” at 12 months of age and they are on full pads and under saddle by 24 months. Who knows how many make the show ring frrrrrromm any given foal crop?

G.[/QUOTE]

Thanx. I ask because I am wondering what is going to happen to the big lick equine population if and when this all changes…if these people really are only motivated by the love of the competition (for prestige or money or whatever), what will they do with the horses if this whole thing ceases to exist?

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;6324704]
Thanx. I ask because I am wondering what is going to happen to the big lick equine population if and when this all changes…if these people really are only motivated by the love of the competition (for prestige or money or whatever), what will they do with the horses if this whole thing ceases to exist?[/QUOTE]

Well, keep your eyes peeled because some of the larger heavier ones may end up at auction houses along with some that would be too small for carriage work. Some TWHs are as large as some Standardbreds and their docile, sensible dispositions would make them ideal candidates for retraining as carriage horses.

I am hoping the the demise of the BLs will bring about a resurgence of shows with classes for naturally gaited TWHs NOT wearing pads, chains, overlong toes, heavily weighted shoes and hoofbands.

The naturally gaited horses will always have a place in the show ring, on the trail and in all breed competitions here and in Europe IMO.

Some of the pacy going horses who need all that junk to “square up” and do a running walk will probably find homes with people who want a cheap trail or pleasure horse. The ones with “names” and championship titles will probably always find buyers who want the 'thrill" of being able to say they own a Champion horse.

Some of them, unfortunately, will probably be dumped at auction, if private buyers can’t be found. But remember, the larger and heaftier of them would probably make pretty good carriage horses. Many trainers do start their hores using carts, so even some of the BL horses many have had early cart driving in their backgrounds.

[War_Admiral]

[QUOTE=sunridge1;6324582]
Yeah that license thing. WTF is that? NO one needs a license to train any horse in this country. That is propaganda for the non-horse owning public, leading them to believe that disciplinary action was taken when in reality there is no such thing. :mad: Clever move, these guys aren’t anything if not clever.[/QUOTE]

The body that governs the licensing of TWH trainers is the Walking Horse Trainers Association. So yes, he did have his license revoked… Seems they’re throwing him under the bus to save themselves…

[WalkInTheWoods]

It is easier to make a big lick horse out of a horse that is closer to pace than trot in the gait spectrum. So this is what the BL breeders have been breeding for. They have to an extent bred the runwalk out of the BL horses. The BL stallions that make it to Celebration and earn WGC titles end up in the breeding shed. People are impressed with their titles and breed their mares to them or buy offspring, either because they are into BL, (either knowing about the cruelty or not) or they dont know about the cruelty and just think that the title means something and they will be getting a good TWH.

If BL ends, and if people learn more about the breed and seek horses with more runwalk not bred out of them, the Who’s Who in the breeding world will change. It could take a few generations of careful breeding to bring back numbers of good solid runwalk Walkers.

In the meantime, just like bayou_bengal said, many ppl will want these horses because of their imagined “good breeding”. Some will buy them and then try to rehab them to gait properly for trail or flatshod shows. Others will feel sorry for them and want to just give them a good life. Some of course may go to auction, but i think the majority of them will be sold or placed just because of their perceived value down south.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6324871]
It is easier to make a big lick horse out of a horse that is closer to pace than trot in the gait spectrum. So this is what the BL breeders have been breeding for. They have to an extent bred the runwalk out of the BL horses. The BL stallions that make it to Celebration and earn WGC titles end up in the breeding shed. People are impressed with their titles and breed their mares to them or buy offspring, either because they are into BL, (either knowing about the cruelty or not) or they dont know about the cruelty and just think that the title means something and they will be getting a good TWH.

If BL ends, and if people learn more about the breed and seek horses with more runwalk not bred out of them, the Who’s Who in the breeding world will change. It could take a few generations of careful breeding to bring back numbers of good solid runwalk Walkers.

In the meantime, just like bayou_bengal said, many ppl will want these horses because of their imagined “good breeding”.
Some will buy them and then try to rehab them to gait properly for trail or flatshod shows. Others will feel sorry for them and want to just give them a good life. Some of course may go to auction, but i think the majority of them will be sold or placed just because of their perceived value down south.[/QUOTE]

Just curious whether you actually own and train TWH or are associated with TWH in any formal sort of way other than being passionate (rightly so ) about their plight with the blow flies that sore them?

I ask cause some of that you mention of poor breeding is not so. But it is often repeated by fans and such (I am a TWH fan).

There is a lot to know about a TWH. How well they perform under saddle depends on the rider as much as the breeding. So stuff like the “walk was bred out cause they were in a big lick farm” is pretty misleading. Lots of good horses are in those farms. ANd they will be desired not cause they are pitied - but because they are wonderful horses.

[hundredacres]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;6324863]
The body that governs the licensing of TWH trainers is the Walking Horse Trainers Association. So yes, he did have his license revoked… Seems they’re throwing him under the bus to save themselves…[/QUOTE]

They’re revoking his license because he got caught - it’s probably a way of excommunicating him for their Club. I’m sure they’re all having pow-wows now, sharing their thoughts on how to get away with it without being caught. There’s no way those barbarians are reconsidering what they actually do. That and they’re probably stockpiling food and munitions for the Apocalypse. Fruit cakes.

[Cashela]

They’re not ![](oing to stop, BL is their big money maker! I don’t know if this was posted or not.

[URL=“http://www.twhbea.com/News/12ListeningSessionResponce0410.php”]http://www.twhbea.com/Ne[IMG]http://www.twhbea.com/graphics_sts/headers/news_header.gif)

4/10/12

TWHBEA stands firmly against ANY reduction in weight or size of the current pads or action device. The survival of our registry relies mainly on the performance horse. As the performance horse market has declined over the past 6 years, our annual budget has decreased from $5,000,000+/- to less than $2,000,000 annually. Our breed, horse, and registry will not survive at its current level without the existence of our great performance horse. [/FONT]

My Grandfather, Dr. Leonidas Euclid Irby, DVM joined TWHBEA in 1955 after he traded a bill owed to him for a Tennessee Walking Horse named Sunset Sue, and our family has remained members of TWHBEA ever since. Our family has been a part of producing nearly 9,000 foals since 1955 through various avenues including my previous five year career as the Director of Sales & Marketing at Waterfall Farms, the largest breeding facility within our industry. I can tell you that based on past informal studies of the major breeding farms that 90% of TWH mares bred, are bred with the expectation that the foals will become future padded performance show horses. If our pads and action devices are removed, TWHBEA, could expect a potential decline in breedings of 60-70% within a period of one year. The result of this shock and unintended consequence could possibly lead to the closure of an organization that is now in its 76th year. If this were to happen, the Tennessee Walking Horse would simply cease to exist. Today, our organization is considering leasing part of our facilities to private enterprise, and further cutbacks of our immediate budget. Less than 5 years ago, our organization had nearly 30 employees, and today we have a mere 12 employees.
ws/12ListeningSessionResponce0410.php

[hundredacres]

[QUOTE=Cashela;6324883]
They’re not ![](oing to stop, BL is their big money maker! I don’t know if this was posted or not.

[URL=“http://www.twhbea.com/News/12ListeningSessionResponce0410.php”]http://www.twhbea.com/Ne[IMG]http://www.twhbea.com/graphics_sts/headers/news_header.gif)

4/10/12

TWHBEA stands firmly against ANY reduction in weight or size of the current pads or action device. The survival of our registry relies mainly on the performance horse. As the performance horse market has declined over the past 6 years, our annual budget has decreased from $5,000,000+/- to less than $2,000,000 annually. Our breed, horse, and registry will not survive at its current level without the existence of our great performance horse. [/FONT]

My Grandfather, Dr. Leonidas Euclid Irby, DVM joined TWHBEA in 1955 after he traded a bill owed to him for a Tennessee Walking Horse named Sunset Sue, and our family has remained members of TWHBEA ever since. Our family has been a part of producing nearly 9,000 foals since 1955 through various avenues including my previous five year career as the Director of Sales & Marketing at Waterfall Farms, the largest breeding facility within our industry. I can tell you that based on past informal studies of the major breeding farms that 90% of TWH mares bred, are bred with the expectation that the foals will become future padded performance show horses. If our pads and action devices are removed, TWHBEA, could expect a potential decline in breedings of 60-70% within a period of one year. The result of this shock and unintended consequence could possibly lead to the closure of an organization that is now in its 76th year. If this were to happen, the Tennessee Walking Horse would simply cease to exist. Today, our organization is considering leasing part of our facilities to private enterprise, and further cutbacks of our immediate budget. Less than 5 years ago, our organization had nearly 30 employees, and today we have a mere 12 employees.
ws/12ListeningSessionResponce0410.php[/QUOTE]

Poor babies. They act like change is the end of the world. As if this world hasn’t seen down-sizing in every enterprise on earth (except oil). They need to get with the new century and pour what funds they have left to PRESERVE their breed and their reputation. Instead, it’s like a religious cult preaching to it’s members to start packing because the mother ship wil be here soon to take them away from this wretched, changing world.

[SwampYankee]

I have Walkers; one each of the “old Plantation type” and a youngster who would have been a strong BL candidate had he grown beyond pony size. I believe that his having been culled and dumped in an auction was probably the best thing that happened to him!

They are definitely 2 different types. The Old-Fashioned one is 16.1 h, big-boned, and has a tendency toward the trot if pushed too hard in gait. He trots like a box of rocks, so we sure discourage that! He trots sometimes at liberty, though. Easy to shift into running walk and can do it all day.

The young horse when he came to me at almost 4 was only 13.3 h, he’s 6 now and muscling up and learning to gait reliably, which depends on me as the rider as much as any dressage or event horse I’ve ever ridden. He’s got a marked natural tendency to pace (a bigger box of rocks!) and rack, so my job is to relax him, keep him softly coming over his topline and help him separate his feet so this doesn’t happen. The subtlety this riding requires is a constant challenge, I find it fascinating and difficult even after years of French School dressage.

I’ve received “advice” from others of how I could get it done “next week”–twisted wire snaffles, German reins, weighted shoes; I don’t call those methods good horsemanship, and I have no desire to subject him to that, any more than I would use rollkur or pole a jumper with nails. It’s a journey, not a destination, and as both my TWH’s were rescues, I have no papers and couldn’t show if I wanted to.

The little horse is now 14.3, so limber he’s practically triple-jointed, and when excited at liberty he breaks into his own rendition of “BL” for a stride or 3. I have never seen a horse that could do anything like that with its legs in my life, and it still scares the living daylights out of me because it looks so weird! This is what someone must have seen years ago, and started tinkering with ways to enhance it that turned into these atrocious tortures. Somehow, in all disciplines, we’ve got to somehow get people back to where showing is all about the HORSE–not ego or money or whatever hole is in your head because Daddy didn’t love you or something. We need to use peer pressue and NOT patronize the bad trainers in ANY WAY.

My little guy is jet black with a 20-lb. tail and his brilliance literally stops traffic. Did I mention he goes barefoot? He undoubtedly dodged a bullet by being someone’s runt yearling. I hope he’ll enjoy a long career as my trail-horse Maserati!

[pony4me]

Today’s story in the Tennessean. Damage control for sure, but it’s nice that they’ve found some trainers who say they are not soring. I believe that not all trainers sore, but the industry needs to send its members/participants a very loud message that NOBODY should do this anymore. 100% compliance, and then back it up with fines and loss of career.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120519/NEWS21/305180095/Tennessee-Walking-Horse-video-stuns-Shelbyville?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

[spookhorse]

All the other gaited breed organizatios survive without padded horses- those orgs horses are not just marketed with the shows in mind, but also usually having a flat or keg shod haired horse who is suitable for multiple disciplines within the breed.

The TWHBEA needs to be marketing horses towards versatility and phasing out the Big Lick. Those of us who own TWHs know how many different things they can do! And I think that phasing out the Big Lick and cleaning up the image of the TWHBEA would eventually bring members back into the fold who bugged off years ago due to the abuse. New menbers may be emcouraged to come into the breed, as well.

Right now what they’ve got is people buying TWHs and only getting that first membership year to transfer the horse then never renewing again (what I did).

[aarpaso]

Ok,they are throwing Good ole Boy jackie under the bus,but it has opened a can of worms for all TWH trainers.and as far as poor ole H2Ofall farms,you knew how McConnell trained you turned a blind eye because you wanted that coveted WGC,to further your business,you danced with the devil,now pay the price.

The TWHBEA,needs to change,they need to STOP the ABUSE of all walking horses,to imply the breed will cease to exist is HOGWASH.

could CASHELA,an Irby be on the bod of twhbea? and a GOOD ole boy/gal just asking.

oh and w DEAN vp trainer has a few violations under his belt maybe he needs to get under the bus. if ya has had violations in the past 7 yrs get under the D— BUS folks for you are history.

CHANGE IS COMING TO THE walking horse world and they will live on.

[hurleycane]

The HPA (Horse Protection Act) has made the stacks of pads and the use of chains legal. And this happened cause the industry wa successful in watering down the laws that were written just to protect the TWH from the abuse of the organizations that profited from it.

So in a sense, the impotence of the HPA “is” the reason the stacked horse showing is going to continue no matter who pulls sponsorship.

The more people yell and rage against the grotesque use of the TWH (be it pads, weights and soring) the better. Cause eventually they are gonna lose their customer base which is comprised of a lot of folks who are convinced this grotesque movement is beautiful.

I say take the stacks away and let them show their performance horses up a hill - which is what those stacks are doing to the poor horses.

Can you imagine all the $$$ they would spend in raised rings???

[MsM]

Some twenty five years ago, I had a fair bit of experience with TWHs. I worked for a stable in CT whose owner was from the south. He would periodically drive a van south and pick up a load of TWHs.
First, he would not buy any that were too skittish or had open sores on their pasterns (not uncommon at the time among the lower-end sales barns). He did not want to invest too much time in rehab. Ideally he would get horses that the trainers admitted early werent BL and werent abused trying to make them into that. But their behavior let us know that not all were that fortunate. The horses he brought back often had huge shoeing packages - they lost a lot of height when those were removed!
He would let them destress and relax in small paddock turnout for a month or so. Then we would try them out! Started out just saddling and unsaddling and walking them around. Many would be terribly anxious over just that. Eventually we would get on. We could usually get a running walk out of them once we got them over the idea that they were going to be pushed and had to go FAST. They seemed to each have a certain speed where you got a lovely running walk. Most paced if pushed, some trotted.
Once we got them relaxed they were sold. They were popular for gundog trials and trail riders. Lots of buyers who were timid or who had back issues. Their gaits and sensible nature made them ideal.

[WalkInTheWoods]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6324876]
Just curious whether you actually own and train TWH I own a SSH whose sire is SSH/TWH and dam is SSH but whose ancestors are mainly reg. Walker. I am a backyard horse owning trail rider. I trained my own horse but do not hang out a shingle. or are associated with TWH in any formal sort of way I cancelled membership in the SSHBEA which is deep into big lick other than being passionate (rightly so ) about their plight with the blow flies that sore them and stack them - just as bad in my eyes?

I ask cause some of that you mention of poor breeding is not so. Your opinion - what are your credentials ?But it is often repeated by fans and such (I am a TWH fan). Relegate me to fan status - but make that a passionate fan. What i know is what i have learned from people with far more experience than me and from an obsession with learning as much as will fit in my head about this wonderful breed. I have had indepth contact with breeders and spent countless hours discussing bloodlines and gait.There is a lot to know about a TWH. How well they perform under saddle depends on the rider and the trainer as much as the breeding. So stuff like the “walk was bred out cause they were in a big lick farm” is pretty misleading. Lots of good horses are in those farms. ANd they will be desired not cause they are pitied - but because they are wonderful horses.I sure hope so ! I wish all of them a soft landing[/QUOTE]

This thread isnt about what i know or dont know. This thread has attracted posters smarter, far more experienced and better versed in the doings in the TWH world than I. This thread is about helping abolish abuse. Are you in or out ?

[sunridge1]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;6324863]
The body that governs the licensing of TWH trainers is the Walking Horse Trainers Association. So yes, he did have his license revoked… Seems they’re throwing him under the bus to save themselves…[/QUOTE]

That is just a club/cult no different than the UPHA. You still don’t NEED a license to train. You might need a made up ‘license’ to be member of the group/cult.

[Cashela]

@aarpaso;6324944

could CASHELA,an Irby be on the bod of twhbea? and a GOOD ole boy/gal just asking.

.

I don’t understand what you are asking me here. I don’t know who is on the board of directors at TWHBEA. I own MFT’s that I trail ride I don’t believe in hurting horses for a stupid ribbon.

[aarpaso]

Cashela,my apologies,been looking at this so long my eyes are crossed.
i believe we are on the same page. i thought those were your words ,not a quote.

[hurleycane]

I am a fan of the likes of Liz Graves and a wonderfully happy backyarder.

Sorry if my post brought out the red in you - but a lot of what is wrong with the stacked horse is not his breeding as much as it is the stacks and the way they were started. Many Many Many people have nicely gaited and walking TWH that come from the very lines people suggest have too much swing. It is just one more myth that stands in the way of the TWH - IMO.

So I asked your experience as you are saying things that I think unnecessarily taint the TWH. And yes, a lot of smart folks are also repeating what you said about these horses- like “the walk was bred out.” It was not necessarily bred out as it was trained and abused out. The biggest problem with a swingy horse is the rider will push them into pace. The walk is there, the smooth is there it just needs time for the horse and rider to develop the gait.

And remember, not all TWH walk - a lot of the so called heritage horses actually rack. ANd funny thing is a lot of the sister breeds (mountain and spanish breeds as well as the fox trotters) can also walk/running walk - but those folks so hate any association with the TWH they refuse to let the gaited walk into their show ring or breed description.

Here is a link to what is good with the TWH - the likes of Hannah Pulvers and all that she offers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGD1g1GCEds&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HIZrOz_TtI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=68KFLD4SKEM&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK30q8vdjgM&feature=related