Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;6715842]
I find it hard to believe that anyone with two brain cells to rub together and more than five minutes experience being around horses that get shod, cannot reconcile Big Lick stacks into a separate category from therapeutic pads. It’s like comparing apples to geothermal tracking devices. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, they don’t even remotely serve the same purpose and there isn’t even the tiniest bit of resemblance between the two. They are separate entities entirely.

Confusing one with the other, or even trying to put them in the same category…well it’s akin to using a MAC-10 in a game of paintball.[/QUOTE]

The Mythbusters have a famous quote: “Anything worth doing is worth over doing.”

This works in their unique combination of science, pop culture, and entertainment. It’s a Very Bad Idea in shoeing equines.

Aristotle tell us: “One swallow does not make a spring, nor does one fine day.” If he could figure this out 2500 years ago we should be able to figure it out now.

I can’t think of a branch of medical or veterinary science that doesn’t know the difference between a therapeutic therapy and an abusive therapy. There’s an entire industry in sports built around the concept of “chemical performance enhancement.” The same drugs, say steroid injections, that are very beneficial to people suffering musculo-skeletal pain are also easily abused by those seeking to build larger muscle masses. We continue to use the therapeutic injections as we penalize the abusive uses. It’s quite possible to write legally enforceable regulations that address the abuse but leave the medication available for legitimate uses.

Of course the “cheaters” will always look for the “main chance” to avoid the penalty but gain the benefit. Rules don’t guarantee behavior.

Fairfax is wrong is his analysis, but he raises a valid point on the issues of “drawing the line” and “who will draw the line.”

G.

[Fairfax]

Maybe some posters i.e. Spookhorse should start to re-read ALL of the posts starting at the beginning. You will see where there WERE debates as to theraputic compared to overstack. The result?: Posters CLEARLY STATED ALL PADS, any action enhancement i.e. rollers chains stretchies etc EVEN FOR TRAINING at a farm should be outlawed.

Common sense???

Gaited Glory…you sound like a reasonable individual. … There are not a lot of brain cells out there …especially in the groups i.e. government reps where they go with the flow…all it takes is for the “Holy” Roy to say…get rid of ALL devices for ANY reason…remove ALL STACKS (and breeders will then have to breed for sounder horses in any breed) and watch what happens.

Anyone who breeds and shows dogs actively sees how laws, to outlaw puppy farmers…catch EVERYONE ELSE in its web.

I understand theraputic versus stacks. I have watched in the Arabian divisions where “some” want more and more pads…however USEF sticks to its guns and says no.

After reading a lot of hysteria on this forum…it is easy to see how lawys with the HSUS input, supported by a non horse owner Roy and a person in power (politician) not knowing what a pad is…but knowing if he outlaws THEM he will maybe be re-elected…well…you get the picture.

That is why one must be so very very careful

Tighten existing laws AND enforce them. Change expectations to “You WILL BE CAUGHT and CHARGED”…If you are involved with TWH’s in your area…become involved…be part of a solution. It is very easy for everyone to be an authority on a website. It is another thing to get people off their duffs and into the ground level ring.

The fight must become one point at a time. SORING is the start. Get that under control and you might be encouraged by the drop off in the BL division and therefore a change in stack usage.

[cordial]

[QUOTE=Malda;6715803]
And my friend’s alcoholic mother, who is in her 70’s and still drinking, is doing fine. This does not mean that all alcoholics will live long and healthy just because one woman got lucky. Maybe your padded horse is okay (I doubt it). This does not mean all horses who wear stacks are not going to have any problems.[/QUOTE]
What a stupid answer…comparing our horses to a drunken women. I’ll admit that he is really, really in great shape for his age, and he has been blessed with good genes, but, but we have given the very BEST of care. Can you imagine that??
We also have three old cats, one 20, one 19, and one 15. I wonder how that happened, and by the way we had a Lab live to be eighteen, and last but not least, by little trail morgan mare lived to be 35, and she lived with cushings for the last 7 years of her life. I wonder how all that happened…could it be…good CARE. I wonder??? So doubt all you want, Malda!

[GaitedGloryRider]

I don’t think many people doubt BL horses get great care in other aspects of their life. But there is always that pesky business of all the damage the grotesque movement caused by those stacks can, and in all likelihood will, cause.

You say yours is sound at 23. Great. Personally I’m not inclined to believe that a lifetime of being a padded horse hasn’t in some way taken its toll on the horse’s joints. I’m sure you don’t care what I believe though

And I think what Malda was trying to point out is that correlation does not equal causation. Even IF your horse has suffered no ill effects, none whatsoever, even ones that cannot be seen by the naked eye, from years of being a padded horse that sure as hell isn’t the norm. There will always be that one that defies the odds…no matter what the subject at hand is.

ETA: And our animals living to ripe old ages should be the norm, not the exception. It’s great your animals have lived long lives but I hardly think it warrants a pat on the back. You’re juts doing what any animal owner should be obligated to do. Food, vet care, shelter, prompt medical attention. It’s not rocket science.

[hurleycane]

As often happens - those who want the stacks on this thread will pishaw or twist a statement to be a comparative aimed at them personally when nothing of the sort was done. No one compared a horse to a drunken aunt or the holocaust. But some sure took the opportunity to get a little attention on the matter.

To bring this a little more personal but speak to the topic I have a few questions for those who think the stacks should remain legal.

What would you describe as a “legal” stack?

What would be the legal dimensions of the foot that is attached to the stack?

Don’t act like this is hard or a trick question - I mean if you put a stack on your horse you must have some examples or an idea of what that stack should or should not be.

Give us some dimensions.

And while you are at it put a perspective of how did you arrive at that particular height of stack? How did the enhancement of the gait reach what you felt was the pinnacle for that horse? Did you ever see a stack that was too high? What was the effect on the gait?

And tell us - will the stack work without the chain? Will the stack work with a reduction in height? or will it work with a reduction in weight?

I mean are you willing to talk in specifics about this? Even on the old horses?

Let us who so oppose what you do hear something to change our minds.

I will be honest and say I will not agree with what you have to say - cause all along the way I felt the TWH could do without the chain and less stack. Other breeds found a limit - if the TWH could have put a limit on this - it would have saved a lot of grief.

But that is just my opinion - you might just convince some others to like what you do. ANd isn’t that why you are here? To defend what the new law is proposing to ban??

[frugalannie]

Fairfax, thank you for your reply to my question. There has been some confusion on this thread with the terminology for stacked pad(s) and therapeutic (de minimus) pads. Each poster knows what he/ she means but sometimes readers don’t.

I’ve tried to be specific in my comments to exclude therapeutic pads of 3 mm or less from the banning discussion as long as there are inspections/ safeguards to identify other potential methods of artificial enhancements (i.e. pressure shoeing).

Hurleycane, great questions. I’m interested in reading the answers.

[cordial]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;6716284]
I don’t think many people doubt BL horses get great care in other aspects of their life. But there is always that pesky business of all the damage the grotesque movement caused by those stacks can, and in all likelihood will, cause.

You say yours is sound at 23. Great. Personally I’m not inclined to believe that a lifetime of being a padded horse hasn’t in some way taken its toll on the horse’s joints. I’m sure you don’t care what I believe though

And I think what Malda was trying to point out is that correlation does not equal causation. Even IF your horse has suffered no ill effects, none whatsoever, even ones that cannot be seen by the naked eye, from years of being a padded horse that sure as hell isn’t the norm. There will always be that one that defies the odds…no matter what the subject at hand is.

ETA: And our animals living to ripe old ages should be the norm, not the exception. It’s great your animals have lived long lives but I hardly think it warrants a pat on the back. You’re juts doing what any animal owner should be obligated to do. Food, vet care, shelter, prompt medical attention. It’s not rocket science.[/QUOTE]

Quite frankly, I think that it has been more then just vet care,shelter, good medical attention…we get teased by other horse people that we go overboard with calling the vet, (our vet is probably the finest vet this side of the Mississippi river…his specialty is horses legs)…people come from all over the country to bring their horses to him. So we go beyond what the average person does, and quite frankly it pays off. Our trainer treats all her clients horses as they were her kids. TWH’s are also known as being a pretty healthy breed, so blast away at me, but I know the truth as to why we have aged horses that still compete.

[BradleyDick]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;6716284]
I don’t think many people doubt BL horses get great care in other aspects of their life. But there is always that pesky business of all the damage the grotesque movement caused by those stacks can, and in all likelihood will, cause[/QUOTE]

There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what’s so ever.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6716872]
There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what’s so ever.[/QUOTE]

Yes there is. It is anecdotal. There are no university level studies that really address the issue one way or the other.

Those of us who have rehabilitated former BL horses know the types of damage we’ve seen.

Those of us who study equine biomechanics have come to the conclusion that damage is likely, short and long term, based upon the presence of the pads, themselves.

Those of us who, in East TN, have known vets that refuse to provide routine care to barns with BL horses know why they’ve made this decision.

So the statement that there is “no evidence” is false and misleading.

G.

[MistyBlue]

There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what’s so ever.

Changing the angles of the entire horse…by lifting it’s front end a few inches from it’s normal stance…will most definitely affect the entire horse in some way or another. It will affect all differently and by different degrees, but it’s impossible to change the structure, balance and angles of any living thing and not affect the joints, tendons and ligaments.

The “proof” of this is physics. Opinion and anecdotes do not change basic physics.

IOW, gravity is a theory. There isn’t any solid proof behind gravity, hence it being termed a theory. It doesn’t change the fact or affects of gravity.

I do very much hope that any regs or laws are worded and termed carefully and by a panel of unbiased experts in the required fields and doesn’t end up an emotional knee-jerk reaction like many aspects of the equine world turn out. The problem with stacking pads/banding them is that there isn’t any possible way to check for pressure shoeing. No way to see if there’s an object or bruising from a recently removed object under the pads. Way too many morons take advantage of that. Here’s hoping constructive idea-sharing can happen in how to address this without ridiculous and/or useless wording.

I think a reason this issue becomes so hotly contested is the current and past actions and reactions of the Big Lick crowd. No other discipline, despite also having issues, has the vast majority of the entrants leave a venue if the USDA shows up. Or has the lion’s share of the champion classes DQed for breaking the rules.

At least in other disciplines…the participants agree there is abuse and they’re just not comfortable rocking the boat over it. (and this is a huge issue IMO, way too many passive fools more interested in themselves than policing their own chosen sports) In Big Lick…participants never want to admit there is a problem. It’s not a “few bad apples and cheaters” when 75% of the animals are loaded and towed off grounds as soon as the USDA pulls in. Or when 3/4 of the top class competitors are DQed. Or when everyone knows who’s soring and stewarding up a storm and they’re in the Hall Of Fame and only removed when the general public gets wind of the crap being swept under the Big Lick rugs. It’s not a few bad apples. It’s an entire diseased tree with only a very few non-wormy apples left on the ground under it. :no:

[cordial]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6716381]
As often happens - those who want the stacks on this thread will pishaw or twist a statement to be a comparative aimed at them personally when nothing of the sort was done. No one compared a horse to a drunken aunt or the holocaust. But some sure took the opportunity to get a little attention on the matter.

To bring this a little more personal but speak to the topic I have a few questions for those who think the stacks should remain legal.

What would you describe as a “legal” stack?

What would be the legal dimensions of the foot that is attached to the stack?

Don’t act like this is hard or a trick question - I mean if you put a stack on your horse you must have some examples or an idea of what that stack should or should not be.

Give us some dimensions.

And while you are at it put a perspective of how did you arrive at that particular height of stack? How did the enhancement of the gait reach what you felt was the pinnacle for that horse? Did you ever see a stack that was too high? What was the effect on the gait?

And tell us - will the stack work without the chain? Will the stack work with a reduction in height? or will it work with a reduction in weight?

I mean are you willing to talk in specifics about this? Even on the old horses?

Let us who so oppose what you do hear something to change our minds.

I will be honest and say I will not agree with what you have to say - cause all along the way I felt the TWH could do without the chain and less stack. Other breeds found a limit - if the TWH could have put a limit on this - it would have saved a lot of grief.

But that is just my opinion - you might just convince some others to like what you do. ANd isn’t that why you are here? To defend what the new law is proposing to ban??[/QUOTE]

We bought this Gelding from a trainer in Tenn., and he had a certain package on, and quite frankly he has had many new packages over the many years we have had him, but I leave all the details of the shoeing to the trainer and farrier…thats what I pay him for. I know that his shoeing has been basically the same for a long time…they find what works, and keep it that way But I will ask the trainer when I go out next week and ask her to write some measurements and report them to you.
By the way, I really don’t give two hoots if you believe me or not.
Also By the way, do you think the H.R. 6388 is going to pass? Also I am sure by saying that we bought him from a trainer in Tenn. I will get bashed, and also he is a world champion padded gelding, and I am sure you will screech about that…

[aarpaso]

if he’s a WGC gelding than WHATS HIS NAMEnot barn name but the name on his TWH papers
or does someone other than me need to ask.

[CFFarm]

WGC champion? Please explain how these horses are judged. They all look to be equally struggling to me. Thanks.

[katarine]

Is a two pound shoe too heavily weighted?

How about three? Three and a half?

Four?

Define too heavy as we discuss ‘weighted shoes’.

What is too heavy?

[Fairfax]

I don’t see knowing a horses name can make any difference. Why? Because you gave the Preachers wife a pass…self admitted that she sored. But, that was HER history

So if this gelding ever received a ticket…would not prove anything. That would be HIS history

[sunridge1]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6717313]
I don’t see knowing a horses name can make any difference. Why? Because you gave the Preachers wife a pass…self admitted that she sored. But, that was HER history

So if this gelding ever received a ticket…would not prove anything. That would be HIS history[/QUOTE]

This, coming from someone who always demands transparency especially on anonymous BB’s. FF do you NEVER recognize your own hypocrisy?

[cordial]

[QUOTE=aarpaso;6717218]
if he’s a WGC gelding than WHATS HIS NAMEnot barn name but the name on his TWH papers
or does someone other than me need to ask.
[/QUOTE]

Do you think that I would be so stupid to tell you his formal name on his papers?? Then you and your busy fingers would get get busy on Ipeds, find out who owned him and on and on and on. But I can tell you thing you WON’T find is a Federal or DQP ticket. I am sure that is what your goal is, so sorry to disappoint you, and I might add, my lite-shod is also a world champion.
You say you are too old to show, well I am wiling to bet that I am older then you and I still show.

[katarine]

Oh look yall…hurley’s questions were not answered. But then neither were mine. Somewhere in mine is NWHA’s limit on a weighted shoe. So which one is ok in your book? 2? 3? 3.5? 4?

What is an ok amount of weight on a weighted shoe? How heavy can a shoe be and be ok in your book?

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=sunridge1;6717323]
This, coming from someone who always demands transparency especially on anonymous BB’s. FF do you NEVER recognize your own hypocrisy?[/QUOTE]

You appear to be confused. After OTHERS continually demanding that I back up every word I posted…I finally did turn about and started to copy them and you and say…Source? Proof?

My point was…if the horse had ever had a sore application applied and it was documented that would not prove anything.

The individual who was demanding the information is famous for not producing any proof for any of her statements or “facts” and she has NEVER challenged the Preacher on his more absurd statements…

She is so desperate to cut down anyone who has presented a different side of a story…not about soring…but about stacks…

Cordial has stated HER horses and HER animals reactions and how old they are. I am sure Cordial has also discovered that even if she had her vet come on and post that the horse had never had a lame day in its life…they would accuse the vet of lying or not really being a vet…Remember the late Don Heneke?

[GaitedGloryRider]

[QUOTE=BradleyDick;6716872]
There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what’s so ever.[/QUOTE]

I’ve bought up enough of your industry’s cast-offs and, with the help of my vet and farrier, rehabbed them to know what I’ve seen going on in those legs. See below, G hits the nail on the head.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6716979]Yes there is. It is anecdotal. There are no university level studies that really address the issue one way or the other.

Those of us who have rehabilitated former BL horses know the types of damage we’ve seen.

Those of us who study equine biomechanics have come to the conclusion that damage is likely, short and long term, based upon the presence of the pads, themselves.

Those of us who, in East TN, have known vets that refuse to provide routine care to barns with BL horses know why they’ve made this decision.

So the statement that there is “no evidence” is false and misleading.

G.[/QUOTE]