Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

Oh and one other thing, the heart of the problem here is these people cannot see what they are doing. I am very familiar with this disease. I live in the land of it, kill me now. It’s not BL but the symptoms are exactly the same. There is NOTHING, that will ever their minds. They will die believing they loved their horses and never harmed them. I swear they have a rule book. They aren’t wired for empathy and compassion. Maybe they are sociopathic I don’t know…But they are self-righteous about things that are obviously beyond the pale. There is not a cure.

There are some like me that went into the horse show world, eyes wide open making my OWN judgements. I backed away slowly. We are the anomaly. Most people will regurgitate everything a they have been told without really seeing it. Either they lie and convince themselves it’s okay, don’t really look at it, or simply don’t care. No wants to admit they’re wrong. It’s a disease or a mental illness, equally bad with no treatment.

[QUOTE=frugalannie;6802064]
Guilherme, please understand that I am not arguing herein, just trying to wrap my brain around a very different discipline from what I’m used to.

What if a soundness trot up before a veterinarian and some judges was only conducted at a certain level (championships, let’s say)?

Also, from the perspective of my small sport, why can’t a horse be referred to the assessment panel, DQP or show vet (don’t most big shows have a vet on call for emergencies?) by any official who notices something that might be lameness? It shouldn’t have to be federal law to try to protect any horse showing from doing so lame.

Again, I come from a fragment of equine sport where any judge (dressage or jumping) or member of the ground jury has the responsibility to pull any horse that appears lame, shows blood anywhere including the mouth and have it checked over. Sometimes it’s nothing (horse can be “rein lame” or just stung itself) and sometimes it results in the horse being spun from the competition. I’m so provincial that I assumed this was true for all major horse competitions.

I’m not getting into the “evenly uneven” lamenesses here. Just asking if a frankly lame horse would be permitted to compete.

Oh, and would you please tell me what DQP stands for?[/QUOTE]

DQP means “Designated Qualified Person.” They are laymen trained under a USDA approved program to conduct inspections under the HPA. The HPA also decrees, through Regulations published by the USDA, how inspections are to done. The rules are that all horses are inspected prior to exhibition and the top two are inspected afterwards. This is why a “trotting out” program would be highly problematical.

In a perfect world DQPs would be unnecessary because judges would not reward extreme motion and would excuse cheaters. But the world is not perfect; so we need “outsiders” to do part of the judge’s job for them.

Just how bad can it be? Some years back I was scribing at a FOSH show. A member of the FOSH board of directors was the Show Manager. The judge (now deceased) was a Name in the sound horse/natural horse world.

Another Name in the sound trainer world was campaigning a three year old TWH gelding. This horse was not sored, but was three legged lame. It was so bad that the rider was whipping the horse, vigorously, to get the canter. At one point the judge asked me what I thought about the horse and I said, “dead lame.” He nodded and then told me to call the Show Manager as ask them if the horse should be examined by the show vet (who was on the grounds). My first reaction was to say, “You’re the judge; why do you need the Show Manager’s input?” I mean, if the judge was asking me for a “second opinion” and now looking for third I would think that they had already made a call. I held my tongue and called the Show Manager. They said no vet exam was necessary, it was no more than a Grade 1 lamness. Aside from the issues of “practicing without a license” I wonder just what horse they were watching. It certainly wasn’t what the judge and I were seeing (like 3-4). I communicated this to the judge. He shrugged his shoulders, gave the horse a blue ribbon, and the show went on. That gelding was shown in three more classes and got three more blue ribbons.

At the time I was no “virgin” when it came to TWH shows. To be fair, neither was I a “regular.” I’d seen this story play out at virtually every NHSC show I’d attended (which is one reason I wasn’t a regular; watching systematized animal cruelty is not my thing). That it happened at a FOSH show was deeply troubling for me.

A professional, effective system of inspection is essential if the goals of the HPA are to be reached. No system is perfect and inspectors will always be one step behind innovative cheaters. That’s just life.

G.

[QUOTE=sunridge1;6802172]
When did this thread become so contentious? Maybe I am skimming posts but from the outside I cannot see why people are fighting here. Jeez I justed asked a sincere simple question, it wasn’t a trick. I asked because I DON’T KNOW, I live in Northern WI for heavens sake. I haven’t seen a Big Lick or even a LITE shod TWH show for 30 years. Natural/Versatility horses? yes and I’ve even done catch rides for someone.

I really don’t understand why I was met with hostility, and condemnation. I’m for the horse! I’ve owned TWH’s/SSH’s and other members of my family have had gaited breeds for 40 some years. Again I’m for the horse and making life better for them. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.[/QUOTE]

I had no issue with you. I was -and am- disgusted at the contempt and grilling that Hurley felt they just had to put out there and I said screw it. The tone and tenor and blatant well, you just don’t know what you’re talking about- screw it. I have horses to ride and spreadsheets to conquer on a Saturday.

You’ll have to find someone more interested in being summarily disrespected than I am.

[QUOTE=katarine;6802216]
I had no issue with you. I was -and am- disgusted at the contempt and grilling that Hurley felt they just had to put out there and I said screw it. The tone and tenor and blatant well, you just don’t know what you’re talking about- screw it. I have horses to ride and spreadsheets to conquer on a Saturday.

You’ll have to find someone more interested in being summarily disrespected than I am.[/QUOTE]
I wish you luck with your walkers.
and, if you do ever want to put input on this thread you could use the ignore thing, just saying…:slight_smile:

OMGiH. It apparently does take federal regulation to protect frankly lame horses!

Guilherme, I’m wordless having read your story. And appalled.

A lot of issues can be dealt with using private messages and not dragging all the readers through the turmoil of battling egos and name calling. Dayam. If you dont agree with a post or poster, spell it out in such a way that we can understand your viewpoint if you are trying to make a point OR take it private please. Ive said some dumb stuff and been called on it and as a result of more discussion had an AHA moment. Hard to have that AHA moment if you’re being labeled or called names.

Disclaimer We are the good guys, battling BL. Name calling of Lickers not prohibited. :lol:

Sorry bout the drama Katarine. ANd surprised by it franklly. Mostly know every post I write is not being directed at you in any way. SPecially the lock step comment. You are all wadded up for no good reason girl.

Look at the way you questioned me, and figure out if there’s any way at all it was respectful or fair. any time I see ??? I read “Oh BS, heifer, you are blowing smoke” it certainly does not convey “OMG, really, that’s terrible, tell me more”

The dates and location are plainly stated. But you were flying through and taking notes on what you considered weak points, rather than reading and absorbing.

You know me. You know that I know horses and am hairtip deep in riding TWHs and appreciating them for what they should be. You were rude, girl. I know what rude looks like.

Sorry - I do not see this glaring interrogation light bulb swinging above your head. I am sure not waving one. I thought you answered me pretty nicely and directly - had no clue you were at all upset. And I had no reason to expect you to be upset. But since you were upset - I did go back and look at the way I “questioned” you - and mind you I looked at it from my stand point and not yours.

So rude or not - this is how the questions came up in my post. My stand point (mantra) on this issue is that soring will be better controlled when action devices (and all that it encompasses) are eliminated from the show ring. My rationale is that IF a horse is actually “sore” at the time of DQP it will be easy to detect (you kinda proved that point in your explanation when you described the sore horse). That flatshod horse was sore. And you, by your own statement a novice to this soring crap knew something was sick and wrong about the horse at the time you found it sullied up.

And then you say it passed DQP and showed.

??? said I and I posted my questions pretty much right there. Not questioning what you saw (ie not calling you a liar) - more just questioning that it was sored at a show and it passed DQP.

So I wanted to clarify the what when etc etc. and don’t think I read the end of your post.

You follow me now? The ??? was not in disbelief OF you. It was in disbelief that 1)the horse was being sored AT a show(they had wraps to cook) 2) that a DQP passed the horse. How did that horse pass???

Your Shelbyville location answers the question - and leads to another - I know the horse was spotted - was it a SSH show?

Don’t blame you for being made to feel unsafe. Though it was long ago - it was very sickening for me to witness and scary as hell to be there with the soring bastards.

Now - I think this not need be the Hurleycane/Katarine show no mo.

My apologies for the waddy.

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6800253]
:encouragement:JUst want to add again - we need a “trot out or a pace out” as part of a DQP exam. Currently they just mosey around cones. Get them up into suspension and soring will show.

And it might keep the “off” ones out of the ring.

Not a bad idea.[/QUOTE]

I do agree. the problem is they’d never agree to it. These horses are four-legged lame, so they’re going to look even no matter what. That’s how they sore them, especially when pressure shoeing–they have to be even on both sides. Plus, most of the BL horses are bred to pace so they can “square up” when they sore and stack them. An actual “gait out” (to coin a phrase - LOL) would separate the boys from the men–we’d see who’s really got a natural gait and who doesn’t. Most of them don’t anymore.

I once said to a friend who used to sore horses wouldn’t it be something if they had TWH liberty classes? I was being sarcastic. She was like yeah, right–no horse would win because none of them can perform a true gait. We both had a good laugh at that.

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6801184]
Andrea - I am glad you are here. You sure are a great resource! And a good advocate.[/QUOTE]

Thanks so much, hurleycane!

CONCERNING ENDURANCE…

I’m not sure if this was covered or not, or if anyone really needed an answer. :smiley: TWHs and various gaited horses are used for endurance all the time. It used to be that people had to really explain to vets why their horse was “bobbing his head” while in the trot out. Now vets are doing a great job of educating themselves and learning that gaited horses move differently, so you don’t look for lameness issues the same way as is done with traditional breeds.

Sorry if I’ve answered and already answered question. :wink:

WITW - Gotta ask: DO you think we should discuss more the specifics of soring? I think it really does need to be more understood to make the point clearer about why action devices need to be eliminated as outlined in HR6388.

Like the comment about the chain and cooking only for certain divisions. From the folks I know who know this stuff, just about anything you can do to get the horse sore in both fronts will give a gaiter the founder crawl. Like the guy I watched kick the bay on the coronet.

I think it would also be good to discuss how DQP can be enhanced without great cost to the show or exhibitor to better detect the sored and stewarded horse.

Like walking the cones - if G would like to answer, I am curious as to what the assessment guidelines are for the DQP on that? Are they looking for a misstep? Stumble? If so - how is that different from a trot out?

And mind you I am not grilling - just furthering the discussion and HR6388 cause.

LOL the “head bob” post Andrea. And the “gait out.”

But they are out there: good trainers and good walking horses.

The Kentucky After Christmas sale:

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/01/25/2490951/sale-of-tennessee-walking-horses.html#storylink=cpy

Here is a link to some pics.

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/01/25/2490676/tennessee-walking-horse-sale-in.html#storylink=relast

This sale when held at Tattersalls through the years was a showcase for the padded horse. You would see a lot of padded champions,broodmares and a just a few flatshod horses up for bid. Huge crowds and a lot of money being spent. The times are changing. This sale had no padded, a small crowd of buyers and the prices were way down.

I’ve attended the KY After Christmas Sale several times in the past 8 years since I’ve lived pretty close to Tattersall’s, and I have to say, the best prices I’ve seen on ANY horse going through that sale in any year that I’ve gone has been for flat/keg shod SOUND trail horses. I think that it probably sales probably weren’t any worse than any other year.

I have seen an unregistered, well-gaited, 13hh PONY sell for more at this sale than the padded horses or WGC bred broodmares (bred back to WGCs) would bring (we’re talking thousands the unreg. pony brought). The broodies would bring maybe $400… Padded horses are going out the door cheap and have been for the last few years, there’s just this one group of people hanging onto them. You can’t hardly give away the padded horses IMHO.

I feel real bad that horses have had to endure the performance “training” lifestyle and now their worth has been downgraded. They lived it for what ? Hope the ex-BL horses transition well to flatshod and have enough gait to make them valuable to trail riders and other non-BL owners.

I have one I’m pretty fond of, but his personality is what makes him :slight_smile: Looks-wise, he’s not real pretty, and he’s none too smart LOL His gait is pacey, but he’s getting better with years of work.

Now wait a minute. His gait needs work, he is not pretty yet you are very fond of him. You say he is not smart ?? I think he has your number ! LOL

He’s just a big adorable mug LOL Got a head shaped like a hammer and can’t find his stall to save his life (the mares have no problem with this).