Sorry, wrong forum to post in. 
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Interesting and helpful, MVP. I’m having to learn how to maintain the conversation and mental engagement without “picking and tweaking” with my new horse, and it’s hard.
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I cannot tell you how many times I almost do this in the new format 
I thought this thread was in Off Course, then realized it was not. 
This new format brings up post from all threads, need to pay attention better.
Thank you
Sounds like my hackney pony. He’s a type A to the max. He knows yes as a reward and good try, a break is not a reward for him, getting to gallop like the wind, figure work, or obstacle stuff is. His brain has to be engaged all the time otherwise he gets silly and makes up his own fun. You can’t get nit picky either, try it once and move on otherwise he hyperfocuses on that one thing and keeps trying to offer it until he gets the yes. He only gets anxious or over it when he gets bored and things aren’t offered in enough variety for his liking. Once he’s done something 2-3 times it’s burned in his brain and you can ask him a year later and he will do it darn near perfect. He’s such a smart and thinking pony.
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My boy knows Good boy, yes. Wonderful, lovely, beautiful and well done.
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Super helpful thanks mvp! I’ve been playing a little to try to see what will help and yes, ex-hunter here, totally guilty. When I encounter resistance my first instinct is still to “sit chilly” and I know that isn’t always helpful. I also tend to take resistance on his part as a sign that I’m riding poorly and that isn’t always the case. Still working at this, but I feel like I have some more things to try!
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I love his little genius self!
FYI, y’all: Extreme Mountain Trail was/is my mare’s calling. The idea that she’d get it right by looking at a total Rubik’s Cube puzzle of a pile of logs or rocks and slowly pick her way through was custom tailored for this mare’s mind. The more she focused, the more she was rewarded. It makes me misty-eyed to see a horse naturally excel at something and find joy in the job itself.
If you don’t know what Extreme Mountain Trail is, here’s a taste from where it was invented at the Oregon Horse Center in Eugene, OR.
Yeah, the more I sat chilly, the less change I got… but I doubled-down on that, thinking that I wasn’t quiet and tactful enough. The fact was that my horsemanship was bad: I didn’t read her right and know what she needed. My ignorance and well-intentioned mistake was why I mentioned it.
Oh, but I can still ride badly and the mare will tell me. If she is rude in the bridle, it’s because I stiffened my elbows by a tiny amount in a way I didn’t realize. Again, “Oops, my bad. King Mare is always right.”
I say that in an eye-rolly way (because, really, don’t we all want horses to just cut us slack rather than call us out on our stuff?). But she actually is a good sport and mentally/physically tough. She doesn’t whine about saddle fit and, boy-howdy she could, as she is a hard fit. So the horsemanship point is worth making: When a sensitive, good work-ethic-ed horse tells me that I’m riding badly or not reading him/her right and helping him/her get more relaxed and confident, they probably have a legitimate point. And the fix is usually simple and immediate if we can identify the problem and correct what we are doing wrong either physically or intellectually.
Don’t get me wrong. I have never accepted a “quitting” attitude-- the horse who gives up trying, and I have done my share of telling the horse to just cope with my less-than-perfect riding because it’s just the truth that they will have to do some of that. But when you have a horse who you know knows how to try, on any given day, and isn’t one who has been allowed to cultivate self-pity when the are ridden, then you must give that animal credit for bringing you a serious unmet need and listen to it.
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More turnout might help as well as routine trail rides. Will you be able to do both at the new barn?
Turnout with a calm, confident friend. Trail rides (ideally with that same confident horse friend).
What really worked for my guy took a long time. Basically anytime he got tense about something, we’d back down to his comfort zone. That started at walking on a loose rein. I’d pick him up and he’d get tense, and let him back down. This has progressed over the years to being able to just give a rein for a stride or two and he relaxes into it (most of the time at least–training is never complete).
For him, it was knowing that I was a fair leader who would let him relax and take it easy again. I may ask for something new or difficult, but I won’t make him do it for long. It’s made him a really fun and willing partner, but it took a long time. I started working with a new instructor fall of 2018 and basically had to start from scratch with this method. We spent that entire winter doing a lot of walk and trot work, only occasionally cantering. But now we’re starting to school 3rd and he’s happy in his work.
Lots of “good boy”. Lots of rein releases. And if we’re doing something new or he offers me something truly brilliant, only ask him to hold it for a few strides before a release. FWIW, his favorite releases are loose rein walk, stretchy trot, or a good hand gallop.
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Oh for sure. I definitely don’t mean that I should let myself slack in a “suck it up and deal with it way”. More that it is that his tactic is because I’m wrong about what he needs, not that I’m executing the fix poorly.
For instance, he doesn’t appreciate being micromanaged but doesn’t want to be thrown away either. If he bulges or drops a shoulder, the best way to fix it right now is to ride a movement that puts it back into place. Trying to fix it with hand or leg of any sort tends to make him fuss about that (and then you ping pong into overreaction and it just becomes a mess from there). No reaction and you’re drunken sailoring/bumper car-ing your way around the arena as though it was his first time under saddle. Float the reins at him, and he becomes extremely upset and head-flingy.
It doesn’t mean that the hand or leg application was wrong for another horse, but it does mean that it’s something he can’t handle at the moment. If you were to watch the overreaction you might think I jabbed him with my spur or yanked on him with my hands. Neither are the case (and that’s what I meant).
We tried yesterday warming up for a long time on a loose rein and then executing trot walk trot transitions just sliding into trot and walk. This was helpful and seemed to keep him much more fluid. I tried very hard to quiet my intensity (so instead of ‘we’re going to get to A and we’re going to trot’ it was more of a ‘as we approach a, we will start breathing into trot’) and he seemed to react well to that. Definitely not abandoning him, but also being less…intense(?) from an energy perspective. Weird balance to try to keep (and I know I’m sounding kind of woo woo, but it’s the only way I can describe it).
It reminds me of bridling him too. When I bridle him, if I start by “holding the bridle normally” he’s grabbing it, attempting to suck the bit into his mouth, grabbing all the pieces in kind of a frantic way. If, however, after I put the reins over his head but before I take his halter off, I massage his TMJ joints for awhile and rub his poll, THEN take the halter off, the bridling is much calmer, less filled with anxiety and he takes the bit without grabbing all the pieces on the way in. Less Spongebob “I’m ready!” and more “ok, let’s do this thing, lady”.
I’d say it was just me but we’ve gone through several trainers who have all said similar things, though in varying languages. He’s very sensitive, tries very hard, gets very upset if he doesn’t have the answer right, and carries a lot of tension.
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Yes, both will be available to us. I definitely think this is one contributing factor
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I’ve had 2 of these – both OTTBs. And I have to say, I love them. I have the one now. He’s out pretty much 24x7 with 2 longhorn steers. He’s super smart and he’s very personable. He always tries so hard and we’re just starting to understand each other under saddle—he had experience in baby jumpers at shows in FL before I adopted him. So I’m still trying to figure out what he knows—and it’s more than most OTTBs. I think it’s kind of like people—they love praise when they do good and encouragement with consistency when they are finding their way. I don’t have high expectations and I love to just live with and love on my horses. When you ask a question and they answer in spades—wow!
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Honestly this is my favorite type of horse, maybe because I grew up riding OTTBs. My current guy tends to chomp and get behind the bit when pushed too hard.
A couple of things I work on are:
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Generous, frequent vocal praise (and not just before a walk break) and pats, or if they’re not quite getting it, just talking out loud in that nice calm voice. Reward even the steps in the right direction. On a tough day, I’ll start praising even the simple things he knows already.
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Generally be vigilant about letting off an aid once you get a response. And make sure you’re working from ask/tell/demand phases- some sensitive types I know get very offended if you tell before you ask.
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Sometimes it’s counterproductive to try to push through the anxiety. If he gets too anxious, I’ll let off and spend a bit asking for something that he really knows (ideally somewhat related to what we’re trying), like a leg yield, then praise the heck out of him. Once he’s feeling more relaxed, I’ll try again. This also gives you time to consider whether a different approach might make more sense to him.
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Some really good advice I got from a clinician was to spend some time during your ride not asking for anything. Resist the temptation to micromanage- maybe focus on one thing, and let some of the others slide for a bit while you work on that.
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Depending on personality, some anxious horses do better or worse with drilling. For some, repetition helps them relax because it becomes ho-hum, no big deal. For others, they spend every repetition thinking you’re doing it again because it’s not right yet. For that type, I try to keep a pretty varied practice where we mix in our focus with a lot of other things instead of spending 10 minutes straight on it.
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My mare is a lot like this! She’s very willing, will do whatever I ask, but can get a bit “flustered”. IMO the best way to teach them to relax is to just do relaxing things with them. Maybe got for a trail ride and let him graze along the way, or if that’s too much maybe just hand walk and let him snack along the way. Even a massage if you know how to do that too. Anything that you can see him visibly take that deep breath and relax is helpful that way when you go to get him from his stall/ paddock he doesn’t just assume it’s time for “work”. It could mean a massage, it could mean hand grazing, or it could mean work.
[quote=“Alterration, post:34, topic:759319, full:true”
For instance, he doesn’t appreciate being micromanaged but doesn’t want to be thrown away either. If he bulges or drops a shoulder, the best way to fix it right now is to ride a movement that puts it back into place. Trying to fix it with hand or leg of any sort tends to make him fuss about that (and then you ping pong into overreaction and it just becomes a mess from there). No reaction and you’re drunken sailoring/bumper car-ing your way around the arena as though it was his first time under saddle. Float the reins at him, and he becomes extremely upset and head-flingy.
It doesn’t mean that the hand or leg application was wrong for another horse, but it does mean that it’s something he can’t handle at the moment. If you were to watch the overreaction you might think I jabbed him with my spur or yanked on him with my hands. Neither are the case (and that’s what I meant).
We tried yesterday warming up for a long time on a loose rein and then executing trot walk trot transitions just sliding into trot and walk. This was helpful and seemed to keep him much more fluid. I tried very hard to quiet my intensity (so instead of ‘we’re going to get to A and we’re going to trot’ it was more of a ‘as we approach a, we will start breathing into trot’) and he seemed to react well to that. Definitely not abandoning him, but also being less…intense(?) from an energy perspective. Weird balance to try to keep (and I know I’m sounding kind of woo woo, but it’s the only way I can describe it).
It reminds me of bridling him too. When I bridle him, if I start by “holding the bridle normally” he’s grabbing it, attempting to suck the bit into his mouth, grabbing all the pieces in kind of a frantic way. If, however, after I put the reins over his head but before I take his halter off, I massage his TMJ joints for awhile and rub his poll, THEN take the halter off, the bridling is much calmer, less filled with anxiety and he takes the bit without grabbing all the pieces on the way in. Less Spongebob “I’m ready!” and more “ok, let’s do this thing, lady”.
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Ooh… I just got a really good insight from reading your description (and thinking about my mare… and also thinking about biomechanics). See if it fits:
When he has drops or bulges on a shoulder, what’s really happening is that he has relaxed one side or the other of his thoracic cling, and now his heavy body, high up on legs with a relatively narrow base is falling to one side or the other (and of course, down, because horses are built to be downhill, or level at best).
The thing to fix, then, is what’s happening to that heavy, high up carcass, and the way to do that is by asking the horse to re-engage his postural muscle, lift up the front end of his rib cage and keep it between his scapulae.
But how to get a horse to do this? If you ride the sides of the horse with your leg, and influence the position of his head (as most of us do), you can set up the scenario where he’s got to re-engage his core and thoracic sling. In other words, all that stuff about where a horse puts his head-- a heavy weight out at the end of the long leverage-arm of his neck-- is really about putting him in to a position where he has to engage his core to keep from falling over.
For the sensitive horse, however, grabbing their head freaks 'em out, and with good reason: After all, they were using their head to balance in that un-balanced posture they were in, so when you intervene, they get worried.
Riding a movement that naturally requires that the horse re-engage the side of his thoracic sling he has relaxed, however, gets the job done with more precision and less psychological stress to the animal. In fact, I think really made dressage horses with good, feeling riders are often asked for, say, a single step of shoulder-fore, if they have started to “fall” to the outside of the thoracic sling with their rib cage. Of course, the horse who is sent flying somewhere in a shoulder fore with his back dropped isn’t in balance. But if you actually do this movement right, you can feel them lift up the front of their ribcage as they step into the movement.
I’m not sure I have explained it well, but I hope you all can see my point: The sensitive or tense horse is worried about losing his balance AND your “intervention.” So pick the intervention that most quickly addresses his balance. Know that the origin of the problem and the solution is actually in his thoracic sling and core, not in where he has his head. Your legs, of course, can help with where he’s swinging his rib cage, and, in the next step when he places his hind feet, just how his back feet follow his front feet or step out of that track. But I think horses swing their rib cage (and all the heavy viscera in there) or hold is straight according to how much stability they have created for the front end of that in the thoracic sling.
What’s cool is when you can “babysit” the balance of the tense horse and ride him in a few steps of a lateral movement that fixes his thoracic sling so that he learns how to want to stay underneath you, and that whole ride can come from addressing his body; your “peripheral aids”-- your calves and hand-- become secondary to what you were doing with your seat and weight to tell him where to put the front of his rib cage.
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@mvp your posts are very interesting.
I have an OTTB mare who is all as described above by others. Always good to have more tools in my toolbox.
That’s an awesome way of putting what I was trying to describe, and definitely some insight into why he gets worried where a duller horse might just say “ok, whatever you say, guess I’ll just fall over then”. He’s also got a very long neck (as is the breed standard) and so I’m sure he’s also used to using that pendulum in a big way.
This also may be a stage of his training, where he understands “circle” or “leg yield” or “shoulder fore” but does not understand “one or two steps of shoulder fore and then back to whatever I was doing before” - not a great explanation, but I think you see the picture. He is still pretty green, but picks up on things very quickly so it’s possible that I need to increase the variability of the school figures and exercises so that one or two steps of shoulder fore (for instance) are not something weird and nerve-wracking and “picking”, but rather something that “just happens”. I tried this last night a bit and it did seem to help. At our previous facility we found this difficult because of traffic in the ring.
We also made a number of adjustments to his saddling/girthing & bridling that are helping as well. Fuzzy straight girth adjusted more loosely and further back beats anatomic girth appropriately in the girth groove. Wider twist (but same tree size) saddle is more comfortable (for him…sucks for me, but I’ll live). Simple single-jointed copper mouth loose ring with a lightly adjusted flash beats…every other bit we’ve tried from curved with lozenges to titanium. It was the one bit I hadn’t tried since I thought there was no way he’d like it. I was incorrect. Sometimes simple really is better.
This horse is a real learning experience and I adore him. I’ve often said that he says what other horses are thinking, and it’s a nice change!
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