Tevis 2022

[phantomhorse]

@endlessclimb

Riding a horse on treacherous trails in the pitch black is not something someone who cares about their horse would do.

Again, this is for the human.

Jumping a horse over 5’ jumps is not something someone who cares about their horse would do.

Running a horse around 3 cans is not something someone who cares about their horse would do.

Riding a horse nowhere but an arena is not something someone who cares about their horse would do.

Sitting on the back of an animal whose spine is meant to support hanging weight is not something someone who cares about their horse would do.

Name me ANYTHING to do with ANY riding that isn’t for the human.

I was there for the first breath my endurance partner took - and her last. Disposable indeed.

[FjordBCRF]

@Ghazzu

As someone who used to vet distance rides, you couldn’t be furtheer from reality for the overwhelming majority of riders.

Granted I have a sample size of 1, but my friend that rides AERC is one of the most knowledgeable horse folks I know. I learned more from him in a year of horse ownership about nutrition, hooves, and conditioning than I did in decades of 4H and showing. He just achieved their decade award this year. I don’t have the guts to ride endurance, but I have a much greater understanding of what goes into it respect seeing it more up close.

[endlessclimb]

You can defend it all you want - riding a horse through downright treacherous terrain in the dark for a buckle is an unnecessary risk. What’s the harm in splitting it into two days? Or picking a less treacherous 100 mile trail??

[phantomhorse]

Don’t want to ride 100 miles? Don’t want to ride on whatever it is you define as treacherous? Perfect - don’t!

Have you ever ridden a distance ride sanctioned by one of the well-known national organizations? Even attended one?

[endlessclimb]

Let’s ask the horses if they do or don’t want to risk their lives for the glory of a human.

2 horses died in an annual event. There is no defense for this. You can’t be an advocate for the animal and condone this.

[phantomhorse]

@endlessclimb

Let’s ask the horses if they do or don’t want to risk their lives for the glory of a human.

2 horses died in an annual event. There is no defense for this. You can’t be an advocate for the animal and condone this.

Two horses died at an event. That is tragic, full stop. However, that is NOT a common occurrence at any distance event in this country. The Tevis Board has already stated they will be reviewing what can be done to make things safer.

Again, I ask have you ever attended a distance ride? You can’t MAKE a horse travel 1 mile, forget 100, if it doesn’t want to. The fact they can and do travel the miles with us - and with enthusiasm - is part of the magic of this sport.

[endlessclimb]

@phantomhorse

Again, I ask have you ever attended a distance ride?

Can you explain how this is relevant to my concern with this extreme event? I’m not talking about just any ride, I’m talking about this one.

Is “when I ask the horse to do it he does” the litmus test for what is cruel and what is not? You can not be serious.

Since you’re the beacon of knowledge, tell me… is it true there are horses on IV lines at the stops?

[anon68314200]

Got FB ? https://www.facebook.com/groups/mularesytrochas/permalink/809073940451781/

[Ghazzu]

@FjordBCRF

Granted I have a sample size of 1, but my friend that rides AERC is one of the most knowledgeable horse folks I know.

When I first started vetting distance rides, there were a lot of pulls for underconditioned horses, problems related to saddle fit, poor shoeing, etc.
By the time I drifted away from it (due more to time constraints than anything else), I was impressed at the overall improvement.
On typical ECTRA rides–competitive trail rides where the horse is judged against itself–we commonly had horses finishing with almost perfect scores.

The other thing that I loved from a DVM perspective was the baseline health-related knowledge of the riders. It was well above that of the average horse owner.

And another thing I loved was the high level of helpfulness amongst competitors. There were always multiple offers to take newbies under their wings, offers of a hoof boot or electrolytes or a water bucket or a mash. Tips on saddle pads, strategies for getting the horse to relax at checkpoints, drink on the trail. Offers to give a novice horse a lead over the scary bridge or under the overpass or past the llamas.

Are thre jackasses in the sport?
Absolutely.
But the base is composed of people who know their horses and care about them.

[FjordBCRF]

@Ghazzu

saddle fit

This too! I should have included that in my list as well.

What you describe has been my experience completely with the helpfulness and taking under a wing as well. Sharing my first two years as an adult horse owner with them (husband and wife both ride), was like hitting the jackpot. And they are crazy awesome people too.

[phantomhorse]

@endlessclimb

Can you explain how this is relevant to my concern with this extreme event? I’m not talking about just any ride, I’m talking about this one.

Since you’re the beacon of knowledge, tell me… is it true there are horses on IV lines at the stops?

Well you just answered my question about having attended rides by asking what you did. Perhaps if you go to an event and witness what is going on there for yourself, you will have a different impression of distance riders and their horses.

As for IV lines at the stops, that would all depend on if any horses were felt to be in need of such supportive treatment. I have been to a lot more rides where no horses were treated with fluids than I have been to rides where they were. Unlike other horse events where animals with issues are put onto a trailer and hauled away, we have treatment vets on site to begin whatever care is needed. Often those vets are on the line (aka doing normal exams) all day, but they are always there just in case.

And while I realize your ‘beacon of knowledge’ comment was total snark, I will tell you that I have been riding distance for 16 seasons. I have 6,770 combined miles and have started 16 100 mile rides, including the ride in question as well as the Old Dominion (which is the Big One for us East Coasters). So yes, I hope I have learned a few things along the way. And compared to some, I am a newbie.

You should come and see the sport for yourself - many rides offer intro distances of 10 or 15 miles and you can work up from there.

[4horses]

The temperatures are an added stressor to the horses. I really think that asking your horse to compete in over 100 degree temperatures for that amount of time and distance is very unfair to the animal.

Here in Florida, it is almost always over 100 degrees out during the summer. High heat and high humidity. I would not dream of asking my horses to ride for 25-50 miles in temperatures like that. If you start at 6 am and are in by 11am, you might be fine. But if you were to start at noon and ride til 6 pm- you would be risking heat stroke for yourself and your horse.

Even a fit horse can suffer from heat exhaustion/heat stroke and dehydration. Yes you are going to need IV fluids, for yourself and your horses if you are trying to do an endurance race in those conditions.

IF you ran the same race and the temperature was cooler than that, you would have a much better completion rate, with fewer heat related illnesses.

I’m not saying they should ban the race, but perhaps take a closer look at temperatures and humidity before running the race (or move it earlier or later in the season). Another factor is that trails tend to degrade over time. You have erosion and the passage of hooves over that trail every year, in addition to natural obstacles. I would expect that without repair you will have significant deterioration over time.

[anon68314200]

As an outdoor sport the weather is always an intractable variable. The riders who pulled their mounts did the right thing by starting out that day with complete dedication to doing what was best, as circumstances developed.

I rode for Jane Savoie at the USET in the days immediately following Hurricane Sandy. Dropped my horse off the night the storm was rolling in. You wanna talk about dumb ass…. The day I rode, ALL of the upper level riders bailed. (They weren’t dumb enough to take their precious mounts out. Duh…). The lower level eager beavers were the idiots who showed up to ride. Jane felt people had made International flights to get there (she was holding an instructor certification ,) so she carried on.

All I’m saying, is that it is hard to make the judgement call sometimes, yeah or neigh. As I recall there was a lot of moaning when endurance was cancelled at the last WEG. And there are plenty of videos available of riders mid jumper course getting bucketed on. I have some lovely pics of a nasty SNOW storm that decided to land for an hour during an October dressage schooling show. A horse club of mine held a working ranch show today and the weather was uncharacteristically pleasant for an August horse show.

It’s outdoors people. We have some weather predictions but not a guarantee. Make your best guess and carry on.

[endlessclimb]

You don’t have to have evented at the 5* level to have concerns about the safety of such events. You don’t have to have competed at the 5* level to have an opinion about them. You don’t have to have competed at a 5* level to think that the questions being asked of the horses are not fair, in the sense that a mistake can easily cost them their life.

@phantomhorse

You can’t MAKE a horse travel 1 mile, forget 100, if it doesn’t want to.

Saying that “we can’t make a horse do anything, hence they must like it if they’re willing to do it” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I’ll just leave this picture as evidence of that idiocy.

If a rider is willing to hydrate a horse via IV in order to continue a ride… I mean, come on. That’s outrageous. It’s an animal. It has no choice in the matter.

Once again, and finally, it’s all for the human’s glory. Period. The horses are the vehicles.

[Sparrowette]

@endlessclimb

You don’t have to have evented at the 5* level to have concerns about the safety of such events. You don’t have to have competed at the 5* level to have an opinion about them. You don’t have to have competed at a 5* level to think that the questions being asked of the horses are not fair, in the sense that a mistake can easily cost them their life.

@phantomhorse

You can’t MAKE a horse travel 1 mile, forget 100, if it doesn’t want to.

Saying that “we can’t make a horse do anything, hence they must like it if they’re willing to do it” is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I’ll just leave this picture as evidence of that idiocy.

If a rider is willing to hydrate a horse via IV in order to continue a ride… I mean, come on. That’s outrageous. It’s an animal. It has no choice in the matter.

Once again, and finally, it’s all for the human’s glory. Period. The horses are the vehicles.

The photo you showed is a bad example. I saw one of these shows when I was a kid. The horse didn’t have anything untoward done to him and was not fearful.

What you see in the photo is training. I remember an article in the paper before a show that my mother read. It described how they trained the horses to do what they were doing. It was all a gradual process. Start small, and over a long period of time, gradually having the horse take the jump from a little higher, while making sure that they know that they can easily get out when they are done.

This is the same process that is used for jumpers if I’m not mistaken. Start with low jumps and gradually go higher?

[endlessclimb]

Just because you can train a horse to do it, even enjoy it, doesn’t mean it’s good for them or in their best interests.

I was not clear in my intention, I will own my poor communication on that one.

[Ghazzu]

@endlessclimb

If a rider is willing to hydrate a horse via IV in order to continue a ride…

This indicates that you really have little idea of what is taking place.
NO HORSE that is treated is allowed to continue.
Horse that are pulled may be treated before being trailered out.
In recent years, the trend has been to treat more aggresively, so horses which may heve been pulled and just waited around in years past are often given fluids to hasten their recovery.

[endlessclimb]

You’re correct, I don’t have intimate knowledge of these events.

What I do know is that 2 horses died in an annual event. One where ridiculous trails are ridden in the dead of the night. Where experienced trail horses FALL OFF A CLIFF.

And outside of “whoops, we’ll try to make the trail safer” there’s no talk of how to actually make this event humane for the horses.

[endlessclimb]

I’m reading the rules. Is this correct?

" Because an equine at the finish line is not, in actuality, going on—and not going into the wilderness far from veterinary aid—the standards for completion need not be as strict as those on the trail, but they must meet the minimum standards below."

So… are they saying that the final check doesn’t need to be as strict as the ones in the middle? That seem logical if we were talking about a car, but… it’s a living breathing animal that just got subjected to whatever it’s rider wanted.

[endlessclimb]

Also, in the soundness check portion: “It must be recognized that we are dealing with a risk sport with its inherent wear and tear.” What is that supposed to mean?