Thanksgiving lameness, now neuro (positive one-year update post 185)

[RedHorses]

The one I identified for the vet during the exam? As I walked him down the clinic aisle I heard him stub his toes on the flat, level concrete every few steps and realized at that moment it was something he always does. If it was the only symptom I wouldn’t have had any concerns.

If you mean the other behaviours, the biggest one was that I see him lose his footing and fall down 2-3 times a year. They aren’t big, dramatic falls that caused injuries - nothing more than the need for a chiropractic adjustment anyway. He’d be running around and his hind feet would get too far from his centre of balance and he’d thump to the ground on his side and immediately get back up. I have zero doubt that he fell when I wasn’t around, and my BO mentioned seeing him fall a few days before the trailer incident last fall.

[Texarkana]

@Libby2563

If that’s so relatively uncompromised that a horse can succeed in 5-star eventing and/or just be mistaken for maybe a little bit clumsy (by a neurologist–not even by any mere mortal who’s seen or handled him), is it really pathological? Or is that the denial talking?

How interesting. And what you say pretty much sums up where I’m at: is it pathological at all or am I exhibiting a dangerous survivor’s bias by thinking that horses with these neurologic results can perform just fine?

I don’t know the answer.

It really makes me think about how and why horses plateau in their progress. I think of my childhood show horse/heart horse-- there were some things we just could not master that prevented us from moving up. Thanks to this thread, even though he passed a decade ago, he was undeniably neuro in ways I did not recognize at the time. There’s a good chance that’s why I couldn’t get him over the hump to move up higher than we did. But the horse raced 109 times, then had a competitive low level show career with me. How much of that time was he neuro? Possibly the entire time. Was he a ticking time bomb and everyone just got lucky, or was he the tough and sound horse we thought him to be with neuro deficits that didn’t prevent him from performing?

[RedHorses]

I suspect a lot of the neuro symptoms we see are minor and stable. A gap in the nerve function somewhere that the horse has learned to compensate for in the same way that humans relearn how to do things after a serious accident. The brain reroutes the information it does get and the compensation is unconscious and automatic.

The degenerative neurological deficits would be the dangerous ones for us as riders as the automatic compensation will fail to compensate at some point as the degeneration becomes faster than the horse’s ability to compensate.

I’m hoping that the trailer incident was lack of practice in compensation. He hadn’t gone anywhere for ten months, and I usually start each season with a short trip to make sure they’re okay with everything. Something I hadn’t done. I do trailer him with studded boots on his hind feet now, just in case.

I think he does better when worked because it’s like physiotherapy with me reminding him to pay attention to how he’s moving his body, altering his balance with my weight, and challenging him with uneven terrain and obstacles all of which demand that he consciously pay attention to what he’s doing. I didn’t ride for much of last spring and summer, and the first time I got on again he walked away from the block like he had never carried a rider before. He was fine by the end of the ride, but it concerned me. The following day’s ride was very good.

This is why I started with the postural exercises and brought them up here. They trick him into using the right muscles, which should make it easier for him to compensate.

[Libby2563]

@Texarkana

Was he a ticking time bomb and everyone just got lucky, or was he the tough and sound horse we thought him to be with neuro deficits that didn’t prevent him from performing?

@RedHorses

I suspect a lot of the neuro symptoms we see are minor and stable. A gap in the nerve function somewhere that the horse has learned to compensate for in the same way that humans relearn how to do things after a serious accident. The brain reroutes the information it does get and the compensation is unconscious and automatic.

The degenerative neurological deficits would be the dangerous ones for us as riders as the automatic compensation will fail to compensate at some point as the degeneration becomes faster than the horse’s ability to compensate.

Another interesting thing Dr Johnson said in the context of whether or not to do the myelogram is that as far as rider safety she worries most about the horses with spinal cord compression because one sudden neck movement can detonate the bomb (paraphrasing that part to relate it to our conversation). The example she gave was a horse spooking sideways on a trail ride and the rider hauling on one rein to keep it on the path.

By contrast it seems like, though of course EDM horses can become dangerous as well, it’s less likely to be a flip of a switch to severe ataxia. Like @RedHorses said, they can compensate for the low-grade ataxia fairly well most of the time, especially with some fitness/practice/PT.

So even with identical neuro grading and symptoms at a particular stage in time, the underlying cause may matter as far as how likely it is to cause a wreck.

@RedHorses, I’m sorry to hear about your guy. Do you know what caused his neuro deficits? It’s encouraging that the exercises have helped so noticeably. I watched a Jec Ballou video back when this all started and was thinking about buying the book.

[starsandsun]

Chiming in just for a sec on two points …

One, Jec Ballou’s book is awesome. I’d recommend it to anyone who needs their horse to build more stabilizer muscles rather than focus on power. Starting from that idea makes a difference.

Next, neuro imho has to be considered in context. As I think I’ve mentioned in this thread, my horse was ‘potentially neuro’ because he couldn’t back up correctly, and stepping over poles on the ground wasn’t something he could do without hitting them.

I wasn’t ready to hear my vet tell me she thought he had some neuro deficits, so I didn’t listen. What I did instead was look for other reasons why he couldn’t do these simple things, and when I got to extreme back tightness, it was clear that impeded his comfort and ability to move well.

Now, of course that then cascaded a different set of challenges, but he is all better and can back up easily for Jec’s recommended steps (60, a few times) and he goes over ground poles perfectly.

So in the moment, it can look like neurological deficits, but there can be other reasons that just may not be apparent right now. With testing that’s not 100% clear when negative … well, I’d keep my eyes open but not panic.

[RedHorses]

No, I don’t know how the original neurological impairment was caused. Apart from the sudden trailer issue I would say he is as he has always been. And, as noted, the trailer issue may have been lack of practice in compensation.

The vet suggested an EHV infection that affected his nerve function when he was very young was a possibility. It could be incorrect development at some point between egg and birth, whether genetic, viral or nutritional. It could be EDM, or Wobblers, or a very old neck injury.

I have chosen to not pursue specific diagnosis because it’s not new (therefore not a treatable infection type of thing) and other than the couple of odd incidents last summer that could be attributed to lack of practice compensating, he is as he has always been. Neurological diagnosis is so much a very expensive elimination exercise and guess work, and there’s not going to be a treatment for such a long standing deficit so I am reluctant to pour money down the rabbit hole.

I know what I’m seeing now and can makes notes and have a good idea if he’s losing his ability to compensate. I can keep him out of situations that might be too much for him to handle, and provide little challenges to improve his compensation skills. I can put studded hoof boots on him for trailering.

Buy the book - It’s 55 Corrective Exercises, not Postural exercises, BTW. It’s more than just 55 exercises. It also has routines to use for specific issues and other information. Well worth the price.

[Libby2563]

Well, this is much sooner than expected but we already had our first “is it a neuro symptom” incident. This morning I found Petey scraped up and feeling a little sorry for himself, went looking around for how he did it, and found this:

He’s sound and everything is superficial, thank goodness! They like to nap in that area so I think he must have been sleeping or rolling, got tangled up in the fence, and did some serious thrashing to get loose. Poor Petey. I want to give him all the snuggles. Actually, I did give him all the snuggles and by the afternoon he was back to his happy-go-lucky self. All our carrot stretches (“carrot” being the operative word) probably helped too.

I’ve had my horses at home for 9 years now and this is my first fence-related injury. I know I jinxed myself because two weeks ago I was talking to a coworker who’s dating a horse lady and he mentioned constantly fixing broken fence boards. I said I’ve only had a couple broken ones in all this time. Warped yes, broken no. Well that’ll learn me for opening my mouth!

[IPEsq]

I’ve known enough not-neuro horses that make poor decisions like that. Watched one large horse get cast on a few occasions out in his large turnout, including once taking out an entire wall of a run-in shed by rolling next to the outside of it…where the shed was sitting in the middle of a very large paddock, and shed was a size it could fit 4-5 horses easily. I missed that one by a short time but saw him stuck in the fence a couple other times. Watched a mare also similarly take down a large section of electric tape fence by rolling and getting tangled. And then she sauntered off like, what? And those are just a couple of examples that I’ve been “lucky” enough to witness in person.

[Libby2563]

@IPEsq

I’ve known enough not-neuro horses that make poor decisions like that.

Yes, I should have clarified that when I first saw him all scraped up I was worried he had fallen down or something. Then when I saw the fence from afar I thought maybe he slid/fell through it. But no, I’m pretty sure this one counts as poor decisionmaking. Seriously, he has a whole acre to choose from and that’s where he lies down!?

[athelas]

I wouldn’t worry too much about that being neuro! When my big orange dummy lived in a stall with an attached run, he’d lie down to roll but roll toward the front wall/door of the stall and get himself cast. Some thrasing and taking out the bottom boards of the door and up he’d pop. They really do the dumbest stuff!

[Libby2563]

Yeah one of my other horses needed stitches today so I guess it’s just one of those weeks. Ugh. I have no idea what he did or where. I like to think my place is pretty safe and I’ve never had pasture injuries like this before!

[atr]

Horses will apparently find whatever it is wherever it is!

A place I used to board at that had beautiful, safe, well fenced flat pastures had a spate of splint bone fractures in the mare field-- like 3 in 2 weeks. It turned out that the neighbor had upended a feed bunk and it’s metal legs were poking through the fence between his property and ours, in a patch of long grass. The horses were used to running along that fence line. Bammo…

[RedHorses]

I identified another neurological symptom on Tuesday this week.

When backing up several steps, horses normally move diagonal pairs of legs. My horse moves his left diagonal (LF, RH) as a pair, but the right diagonal hind first, then front.

The first steps are very distinct with the hind foot landing before the front lifts. As he continues and finds the rhythm of the backing, the front foot leaves the ground after the hind, but before the hind foot lands. The left diagonal remained paired on every step.

I tested it again on Thursday before I rode and got the same footfalls. After riding some of Jec’s exercises I backed him in hand again and the delay in lifting the front foot was much less. He even got the right diagonal moved as a pair maybe once every three or four steps.

He’s always had a bit of an odd backing up. I never watched his feet like that before as I was focused on getting him moving back in a relaxed, regular rhythm. Very interesting!

[beowulf]

How about this for a neuro symptom - does your horse back up before giving you his foot, when you ask him to pick up a front foot for hoofpicking?

I recently learned that this can be an early symptom as well.

[Libby2563]

Backing is part of Dr Johnson’s neuro exam. She talks about it and demos with a normal horse at about 26:45 in this video: https://youtu.be/1tu7VaJOYvY. A neuro horse is shown later for comparison.

Petey picks up his hind feet first. His front feet start to move when his hind feet are about halfway through their arc. He also picks up his hind feet higher than the fronts, which seem more earthbound. He’s quite symmetrical and consistent. After his PT exercises he moves in diagonal pairs! I will post the exercises one of these days.

[Feathered_Feet]

That’s a great video, but I question her use of a Tennessee Walking Horse as her comparator neuro horse. They already look “weird” at the walk relative to most other horses (even other gaited horses look normal relative to a walking horse). A better comparison for educational purposes would have been any breed but that one.

[NaturallyHappy]

I’d love to learn about your exercises!

[Libby2563]

Sorry, I’ve been meaning to post these for a while but work has been so busy and I haven’t been on my personal laptop much lately. Here are the PT exercises recommended by NB:

The following exercises are detailed in the book “Activate Your Horse’s Core” by Hilary Clayton and Narrelle Stubbs. Some exercises to start with include:

● Carrot stretches (dynamic mobilization exercises): Ask him to bend to the left and right hip, down to the fetlocks, and extend the neck out, holding for a few seconds in each location and using a carrot or other treat for encouragement. Repeat 5 times, twice daily, 5 times weekly.
● Pelvic tuck: Place pressure/scratch on either side of the tail head until the gelding/mare lifts the back and tucks the pelvic. Repeat 5 times, twice daily, 5 times weekly.
● Sternal lift: Place pressure upwards on the sternum and abdomen until the gelding/mare lifts the back. Hold for 10 seconds, then release. Repeat 5 times, twice daily, 5 times weekly

Other recommended exercises for generalized strengthening and proprioception include (these should be performed only in a sound horse, and may not be suitable for horses that are lame):
● Tail pull: pull to the left for 10 seconds until the mare’s hind quarter musculature is activated. Hold for 10 seconds, and release. Repeat to the right. Repeat 5 times, twice daily, 5 times weekly.
● Lift each limb for 30 seconds, asking the horse to balance on his other limbs. Repeat 3 times in each limb, twice daily.
● Balance pads (should be done on hard, flat surface) Surefoot balance pads (https://murdochmethod.com/product-category/sure-foot/ - Start with the firm, green pad – can progress to the soft, blue pads. Theraband pads are less expensive, but I believe less durable as well. Place one foot on each pad, have the horse balance on the pads for 5 minutes, replacing the feet on the pads as needed throughout the 5 minutes. Repeat twice daily, 5 times weekly.
● Backing: Start with 5 steps, then progress slowly to 10 steps. Repeat twice daily, 5 times weekly.
● Walking on uneven surfaces: Hand walk on different surfaces if possible (gravel, soft footing, hard footing, over steps.
● Walking up and down hills – start by walking up and down a hill twice, increasing by 2 times weekly until the horse is walking up and down hills 8 times.
● Walking over poles – walk over ground poles (starting with 2 poles and
● Walking in an Equicore band will help the horse engage the hind end and core musculature as well (http://equicoreconcepts.com/), though this can be tiring so you should start with small amounts of time in the band (5 minutes) and progress slowly.

I’ve had the Hilary Clayton booklet for a while and was doing some of the exercises already, though I had backed off carrot stretches because he gets a little frenzied when hand fed treats. I’ve been doing tail pull, limb lift (with some swaying for an added challenge since it seems very easy for him), sternal lift, pelvic tuck (hates it), 3 poles raised at one end, backing up a slight hill, knock-off balance pads (a very firm human kneeling pad, https://a.co/d/ePOB6Bh, which I usually use during the limb lift or tail pull for expediency), and carrot stretches (which I save for last so I can escape the post-treat frenzy right after I’m done…we need to work on that). He regularly walks over grass/dirt/mud, stonedust, smooth asphalt, rough asphalt, gravel, concrete, and rubber mats during the course of daily life so I don’t feel like I need to spend extra time on that. Sometimes I walk up him and down the steep hill to my arena. I would rather do rough ground and hill work out on the trails though.

I will say that the twice a day five times a week schedule seems…aspirational. Somehow my whole current repertoire takes me a good half hour and that doesn’t even include hills or Equicore work. I’ve managed one session a day on 12 out of 14 days so far but I’m already worried about sustaining it. Half an hour a day can be the difference between me riding my other horse or not, and an hour a day of horse PT is just not feasible except perhaps on weekends. Still, hopefully whatever I can manage is better than nothing.

Gratuitous photo of my TB being nice to Petey for about 5 seconds after he got home from NB:

[starsandsun]

@Libby2563

● Lift each limb for 30 seconds, asking the horse to balance on his other limbs. Repeat 3 times in each limb, twice daily.

HAHA they told me to do this and it blew my back out on leg #2 the first time I tried it.

[NaturallyHappy]

Thank you for all of this. I do something very similar w mine. I did discontinue the carrot stretches as he was SO enthusiastic about them I was afraid he would hurt himself🤦‍♀️. He loves treats so much!