The L-Word (Laminitis) :(

[JB]

That’s pretty nice hay! Starch (which is typically the bigger issue over the sugars) is super low, ESC added in is < 10%, and there’s not much WSC total.

Some people think IR/EMS horses need NSC (WSC + starch) to be < 10%.

It’s gone around the block a bit. First it was NSC needed to be that low, but then “they” decided that it was really ESC + starch, but not totally discounting WSC. Like, even if ESC+ starch was 8%, it could still likely be an issue if WSC was, say, 24%

And now, some are back to NSC < 10%

This is a hay I would totally try for an IR horse BUT, since ESC is most of WSC, I can see how a more sensitive EMS horse could be set off. A little surprising, but not horribly so

[FjordBCRF]

Thank you!!!

Feeling much better now

[ladipus]

If it’s laminitis or a laminitic flare then generally it’s minimum 30 days stall rest with deep bedding , hoof boots for extra support and start ECIR recommended emergency diet -which is soaking the hay or feeding a tested low sugar hay , and feeding the specific ECIR approved forage mineral balancers …hand walking only then gradual increase in time/duration , then turnout once horse is sound without any pain meds on a dry lot …based on metabolic bloodwork results possibly adding meds for IR and /or Cushings -unlikely to be Cushings though at 4yrs old

I hadn’t read through all the posts before commenting …I didn’t realize this was originally from 2021

[millerra]

wait… so you all are saying a pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of lead??

OMG - that horse is cute. Who does your mane! that is so neat.

[FjordBCRF]

@millerra

OMG - that horse is cute. Who does your mane! that is so neat.

The mane is all me! Once you cut a design in, it’s easy to maintain if nothing else haha.

——————

Looking for some thoughts! We are moving to a new barn Oct 1; we found what should be a wonderful spot for my trainer to move her training horses into and help to consolidate barns she’s commuting from.

New barn has indoor/outdoor/trails and lots of farm roads for the carriage! It also has spectacular turnout options. It’s privately owned and most of the horses there are the owners. TONS of grass pasture and they have a nice sized drylot turnout, they utilize the outdoor arena for a larger drylot turnout, and some of the pastures aren’t too lush with grass. Right now most of the horses are out all day/night and just come in to eat. Most of the pastures have run ins, the dry lots do not.

I’m inclined have him on a drylot until we get a hard frost and then I think (?) he should be ok out on any of the pastures until spring.

I’m going to schedule the vet to come out once we get settled in; we usually do insulin/T4 testing in the fall just to make sure he’s in a good spot since the lamintis in spring of 2021.

Is there any hope of getting him back out in a larger pasture when the grass isn’t growing in the spring and fall? This will be a question to the vet as well. I’d love for him to be able to be more of a horse but if he needs to spend certain times of the year in a dry lot, so be it. I do worry that if a grazing muzzle comes off, that could be bad if he’s out most hours of the day.

Anything to consider or further ask the vet about this?

[FjordBCRF]

Well what I thought might have been something soft tissue related seems to be laminitis. Again.

Soft Tissue Injuries - Neck/Shoulder *May Update*

As far as I can tell, my guy got roughed up pretty good during turnout. Here’s the timeline: 2/13 - Tuesday - I wasn’t feeling well so I did a bareback ride with our neck rope. Stayed mostly at the walk, trotted a wee bit but that was all. 2/14 - Wednesday - groundwork 2/15 - Thursday - bareback neck rope again. A little more trotting in which I noticed him really stretching his neck down. Out of the ordinary, but first thoughts were things felt different without a saddle AND a bridle for him…

Saturday we went trail riding and found a boggy spot that didn’t look muddy but was. It wasnt the worst, but he sunk in about halfway up his cannon bones. We stopped, and slowly got turned around…didn’t lose any hoof boots or pastern straps in the process (scoot boots) and meandered our way back. It was in the back of my mine he might be sore from that the next day.

Yesterday I got him out of his stall to go driving and sure enough he was not moving soundly. He was better once he loosened up a bit, but was still clearly not comfortable.

• No heat or swelling in all four legs
• No tenderness with the hoof testers on all four
  hooves
• I trim myself and his last trim was last Sunday

His schedule this past week was:

• Monday Massage
• Tuesday training ride
• Wednesday 2 mile drive
• Thursday training ride
• Friday bareback ride around the farm
• Saturday muddy trail ride

I went out first thing this morning to see how things were and he was much worse. Thankfully was able to get an afternoon call with the vet.

Vet checked for any indication of tendon/ligament issues and gave him an all clear on that. He got some feedback from the hoof testers and felt digital pulses in both legs that was pronounced more after a trot up the aisle.

Bute for 5 days and we started Thyo-L

Diet wise not much to fiddle with. I had a 40 bale load for him delivered to hold us over until we get new first cut this year, and didn’t have that tested but am going to even though Im halfway through it just to see and were going to soak his hay at least until his metabolic panel comes back.

Couple days of stall rest with extra bedding as well.

I need to revisit the ECIR group and their material. Ugh.

[luvmyhackney]

I am so sorry to read this. You were doing everything right. Are you thinking the hay pushed it over the edge?

[FjordBCRF]

If the hay is god awful high in NSC…its in the realm of possibility. He’s LOST weight in the last couple months after I started weighing his bags, so everything seemed ducky with that. Im getting the hay core tonight and will get the samples out to the lab this week. Part of me hopes its high so we can blame it. If its on the lower side… This is the first barn we’ve been at with a true drylot too so that was even extra in our favor.

I will say, he’s been more inclined to want to walk in the grass vs on the drives (dirt/gravel) so something was likely brewing.

A dear friend of mine and her family has had a lifetime of easy keeper cobs. Her sentiments were you can do everything right and still have a flare; one of her mares flared up on new year day. No changes in anything and wasn’t on grass.

He’s been in a lot more work recently which makes me wonder if that was a factor. Two training rides/weeks (30 mins), two drives a weeks, and two trail rides with me (more recovery type outings). He’s in great shape, and his fitness levels have really gotten built up.

With any luck we will get his bloodwork back by the end of this week with it being Monday. I was going to have that done when he got shots, but everything seemed to be dialed in so I didn’t. I was also going to test our hay but figured since we didnt have a huge load Id wait until we did. Those two things could have given us a heads up but as far as things in my control, were on top just about as much as we can be.

[luvmyhackney]

@FjordBCRF

A dear friend of mine and her family has had a lifetime of easy keeper cobs. Her sentiments were you can do everything right and still have a flare; one of her mares flared up on new year day. No changes in anything and wasn’t on grass.

I have a pony. I get it. My pony will have flares at any type of stress event, trailering, shots, etc. I was hoping it’s hay on your behalf as that seems to be a change. Everything else seems well dialed in. Sometimes it just happens.

[FjordBCRF]

#ponylife!!

I can live with things happen much better than I didnt something obviously wrong that caused it. I was stressed about our trail ride and the muck, but had I thought it would have caused something that bad (which I didn’t and still don’t), I wouldn’t have taken the route I did. Part of me is glad the vet didnt seem to think that was much of a factor.

Im thankful Im at a barn where we will be able to continue to manage him. Im there everyday anyways so Ill be setting the soaking tub/water for the hay and will get his PM hay soaked myself. I already weigh/prep his bags so that is working well. The caretaker there is ok to toss his hay bag in the soaker in the morning and then hang it so that shouldn’t cause too much extra time. He always thanks me for being such a caring mom even though Charlie is clearly “starving”

[FjordBCRF]

This guy was tickled he got special wet hay delivery last night.

I’m picking up some ice wraps and easyboot clouds/pads for him after work. My body worker also works at a rehab clinic and she said their go to is BEMER, ice wraps, then liniment so we will be doing that every day. Glad I got my BEMER when I did.

[DiamondJubilee]

Poor guy! It sounds like you are doing everything right (dry lot, working him etc). If his insulin is high, the extra work would do him good, not bad as it will lower his insulin levels. Its the best way to lower them (when sound of course) and keeping him heathy and laminitis free.

Getting your hay tested will help you for sure. I just had mine tested on my IR pony and sure does give me peace of mind (and I was able to stop soaking it as it came back 5.4% after wet testing from Mad Barn). I’m a part of the ECIR group as well (as IR was very new to me and my 4 year old pony) and they have been so helpful!

Do you give him any grain at all? I just give a handful of low NSC but even those labelled as “safe for IR” are not necessarily safe. My pony is a crazy picky eater and its the only way I can get him to eat his hay cubes, supplements and flax is if I have a handful of grain. I’m changing to Hoffmans BalanceIR grain as its on Dr. Kellon’s safe list and I don’t trust many other types of grain. I’m only going to be giving him a cup a day of that grain as well. I’ve been working my guy quite a bit and he needs calories as he’s actually ribby (he was never overweight or obese though, just unlucky and was born with EMS and his vaccines were his trigger for laminitis).

Hope your guys bloodwork comes back ok and your hay sample as well! Good luck. Such a cute guy <3

I have my vet coming today to pull blood to recheck his insulin today (it was 60 mid Feb) and to do his rhino/flu IN today so my fingers are crossed. The past 2 times the rhino/flu shot gave my guy laminitis so this is my first time trying it IN. I give flunixin for a bit as well (before and afterwards) to hopefully help.

My guy can never be on pasture. I have a beautiful 4 acre grass paddock that he can only watch from afar. I had him briefly on it in the summer last year in the AM only with a muzzle on, and he was starting to get foot sore, so its just not worth it. He’s on my tested hay, strict diet of haycubes/flax and handful of low NSC grain and a dirt paddock for the rest of his life - plus getting worked over fences 4-5 times a week to lower his insulin. Some ponies are just unlucky and can never have grass (I also don’t give him carrots, apples or anything with sugar in it). My guy has been 100% sound the past 8 months and counting fingers crossed and we just started our show season.

[FjordBCRF]

@DiamondJubilee

Do you give him any grain at all?

Thanks for the comments! For his meal base he gets this twice a day:

3/4 lb shredded beet pulp
1/2 C flax + Vit E (Omega E from Custom Equine Nutrition)
2 TBPS Vermont Blend Pro

He also gets 4 lbs of Unbeetable Forage Only pellets overnight and between his hay bags which is just beet pulp/alfalfa and a small amount of flax. Total weight that that and hay is at right about 20lbs.

When we last did his insulin and T4 in 2022 they came back at 25 and 1.39 respectively. If I understand correctly, the ECIR Group would consider his on the higher side. Im really hoping we get his results back this week.

Tell me about the pastures! We have been lucky enough to be a barns that turnout on decent acreage and we can’t partake

[DiamondJubilee]

You are for sure doing all the right things that I can see! His insulin to me is great (I hope my guys is down that low this time!). I believe if its around 10-20, thats a great #. At 25 its just barley above the max really. When I tested my guys, he was 92 in december then 60 mid feb. Not sure what it will be now, but he started metformin back in Jan after I got his bloodwork back and it only decreased to 60 in a months time, so I’m not sure what it will be now. I should get the results in a few weeks though.

I did get xrays of my guy and he had rotation on both fronts. I gave him all last summer off and restarted him under saddle later on in the year after he was sound for several months. He’s in front shoes for support for now but hopefully I can have him barefoot next year (he moves so much better without the shoes! He has some knee action which is not great for the hunters, even in aluminum shoes. He lost both of his fronts a months ago and I lunged him to see if he was sound, and he moved so much better. And was sound! But my farrier wanted to keep support on the fronts for now).

I need to re do my xrays soon. Just need to make more $$ somehow!

[EmilyM]

I would kill for my horse’s insulin to be in the 20s

[FjordBCRF]

I’m beat, but today was productive. Was able to get to Big Dee’s and pick up his cloud boots and managed to get the size right and got him the freezy leg wraps. I had time to core our hay and get that to the feed store (they ship it out to lab which is nice).

He seems more comfortable in the Clouds which was great. He was very gimpy coming out of his stall but after BEMER and the clouds, he moved pretty well up and down the aisle and was pretty good on the indoor footing.

Between the hay soaking station and our pile of goodies we’re doing are darndest to stay comfortable and recover

[luvmyhackney]

Same… I can’t get my pony under 35. If I adjust his meds to get there he becomes a lifeless blob, so we stay at the 35-40 range.

[TWH_Girl]

Pulling for Charlie to feel better! He will. He’s young , strong and healthy and obviously has superb care.

My friend did soft rides for her guy when he had a bad flare. She then moved to shoes and pads afterwards and he did well after that. I’m not too well versed in barefoot v shoes & pads and what the pros and cons are for horses prone to laminitis. I think her horse may behave had some rotation which is why they did some corrective shoeing.

[OzarksRider]

@FjordBCRF, I’m curious as to why your vet put Charlie on Thyro-L? The main ingredient in that is levothyroxine (T4), which is a thyroid hormone. It can help lower insulin by making the body’s cells more sensitive, but it also increases the metabolic rate which can help with weight loss. I agree with the posters who think Charlie looks a bit “rubenesque” in the photos, and I wonder if the vet thinks maybe he needs to lose some weight. But you said the vet thinks his weight is good, so why Thyro-L?

[FjordBCRF]

To help with weight loss. His diet is and has been dialed in for an easy keeper so little room to change much there. He had been in moderate 5-6 days a week of work since March and we were able to start driving again in April. He’s been on a limestone drylot since October as well which was huge as he’s never had a true dry lot before. His recent schedule was two training rides with trainer, two drives with me and light trail riding with me. So his activity level is going to severely drop which helped get him down.

I don’t mean to insinuate his weight was fine as i was getting it to come down, but he’s in astronomically better shape/fitness and a lower weight than when he got it the first time around.