Pulling for Charlie to feel better! He will. He’s young , strong and healthy and obviously has superb care.
My friend did soft rides for her guy when he had a bad flare. She then moved to shoes and pads afterwards and he did well after that. I’m not too well versed in barefoot v shoes & pads and what the pros and cons are for horses prone to laminitis. I think her horse may behave had some rotation which is why they did some corrective shoeing.
@FjordBCRF, I’m curious as to why your vet put Charlie on Thyro-L? The main ingredient in that is levothyroxine (T4), which is a thyroid hormone. It can help lower insulin by making the body’s cells more sensitive, but it also increases the metabolic rate which can help with weight loss. I agree with the posters who think Charlie looks a bit “rubenesque” in the photos, and I wonder if the vet thinks maybe he needs to lose some weight. But you said the vet thinks his weight is good, so why Thyro-L?
To help with weight loss. His diet is and has been dialed in for an easy keeper so little room to change much there. He had been in moderate 5-6 days a week of work since March and we were able to start driving again in April. He’s been on a limestone drylot since October as well which was huge as he’s never had a true dry lot before. His recent schedule was two training rides with trainer, two drives with me and light trail riding with me. So his activity level is going to severely drop which helped get him down.
I don’t mean to insinuate his weight was fine as i was getting it to come down, but he’s in astronomically better shape/fitness and a lower weight than when he got it the first time around.
It sounds like e is still getting too much food in general…why can’t he just get less hay and feed? I have had three Fjords here over the past few years and they never get put on grass and get a handful of topline and 4 flakes of hay per day. My hay is out of Canada and it’s first cut. All three did fine on that and one I got of all meds when I did this because she was very fat when she got here and metabolic. She arrived with all these supplements that she just did not need. They were in dry lots and stalled at night.
@Bogey2 Last I knew you’re not suppose to give them less than 1.5-2% of their ideal body weight. That’s all he’s gotten since January. He gets roughly 14lbs of (now soaked) hay, 4 pounds of hay/beet pellets and less than a lb of beet pulp/Vermont blend for breakfast dinner. ZERO grass. Hay bags are weighed, everything is weighed.
I guess I could actually starve him but that generally seems to be frowned upon.
I question the 4 pounds of hay/ beet pellets? I have never weighed hay in all my decades of feeding horses. I give them what they need to stay at a healthy weight.
14 pounds of hay along with the pellets and beet pulp is obviously way more than he needs now since he is not moving at all. Horses don’t need access to grass for laminitis/ founder to occur.
My horses were not starved…they were healthy and active. That is still too much food.
Here the the ECIRs recommendation for emergency and non emergency. We had to get in a small load of first cut for him a month ago to hold us over until we get our big load that wasn’t tested. That’s the only miss. Even they recommend 2% BW in forage and that group is the most conservative with this stuff. Lesson learned is we will soak untested hay moving forward until I have a hay analysis in my hands.
Until we get bloodwork back we have no idea what is off internally and how much. Until I get the hay analysis back, I don’t know if he’s below 10%ESC or if it’s up in the 20%s…and if it is, that could be why. If he’s having issues on the ECIR diet and in the work he is in, I believe we’re dealing with something more complicated than simply eating too much.
4 lbs of forage is 4lbs of forage. And congratulations for never having to weigh your hay?
@Bogey2 ok, so starve him. Got it. I’m using that in a scientific sense since that less than 1.5% is basically already doing that. EVERYTHING I’ve heard on the now multiple equine nutrition courses I’ve taken at UMN will never advocate for a diet less than 1.5% forage. Including my vet who ALSO didn’t want him to have any less than he’s already getting and was why he was put on the thyro-l.
Editing to add, our vet is 100% good with the hay pellets and thinks it’s a great strategy to not have him on an empty stomach most of the day.
I can tell by feel and volume how much I am putting out and I assess my guys every morning and will adjust accordingly. Since I peel my hay off of our round bales or feed the goats leftovers ( from their feeders) I can be pretty consistent and the hay tends to be consistent( no heavy or light flakes like happens in squares).
Nobody wants their horses to go hungry or starve them but I think that the 1.5-2% that is suggested just does not work for every horse. Just like the calorie recommendation for people based on height/ build just does not work for every person.
I know you are doing the best you can for your sweet boy but the 18 pounds a day appears to be too much for him at this time.
Well I can tell you that regardless of all that info your horse is fat and uncomfortable. When you talk about forage then maybe he should be out and actually forage for the hay…not get pellets at all, just spread hay around. And no, I am not a vet but my old school vet would have kicked my ass if I let a horse get that fat then wanted to fix it with meds.
Kind of hard on stall rest? And I don’t need ulcers on top of metabolic issues.
Prior to last Sunday, he got his AM hay (7 whole lbs!!) while turned out for the day in his dry lot in a haychix extreme slow feed net that was on the ground for him to kick around with turnout from about 8:30-5. This time of the year the horses only come in for their meals and go back out overnight too. Terrible management I tell ya.
When I say there isn’t much more to be done, there isn’t much more to be done. Short of winning the lottery and building a 20 acre track system for him with perfect hay I grow myself and a herd to play with all day…we are lucky to be at an extremely knowledgeable barn that turns horses out, can accommodate things like hay soaking, and a true dry lot.
He also has actively been loosing weight this year
May
Feb
This may feel like a pile on, but that is not the intention.
Are you feeding him for what he currently weighs or for what he should weigh?
When I look at the most recent picture of him and guess his height/weight, and add up the amount of forage (~19lbs), I personally would say that for my guess on height/weight you could very easily drop a few pounds of forage and still be well within 1.5% forage:body weight and would probably have a ton more success getting him to a decent weight.
It’s the same with thin horses - we feed them for the weight we want them to be, not the weight they currently carry, otherwise we will not swing the pendulum in the required direction.
Doubling or tripling his net/s can help slow them down even more so their rations last a little longer. FWIW, because I always worry about gut health, I’d ditch the pellets completely because they are eaten quickly and then the meal is done whereas replacing a little of them (not all*** - because overall reduction) with dry hay.
*** EDITING to clarify - I mean ditch ALL the pellets and add in only some of the weight of the former pellet portion in dry hay (dry hay weight, obviously you’re going to still want to soak it!)
Another thought to slow down consumption of part of the ration would be a hay ball.
Hoping for a full recovery! Laminitis sucks it so bad.
Metabolic horses, especially genetically predisposed ones, are difficult to manage.
It sounds to me like you are really trying to do everything right. And what works for one will not work for another.
He gets fed based on an ideal weight of 1000lbs which is what was recommended by the vet and nutritionist. Mad Barn lists the average body weight for fjords range between 880 – 1,100lbs which were pretty in the middle of. Makes the math easier too lol. I ALWAYS ask the vet if we need to tweak anything when he’s out and he’s basically given me the “keep up the good work” response.
We have several different hay set ups going on to keep him occupied longer; doubling up a net over the hay play bag is seeming to get us the most chew time. His caretaker said 7lbs lasted closer to 3-3.5 hours today in that combo. That’s without the extreme slow feed which I have prepped for tomorrow. If I can get him close to 4 hours of chew time that would be excellent.
IMG_2848
I’m open to knocking his pellets down a BIT, but I still think it’s important for him to not go from 9PM to 8 or 9 AM on an empty stomach. They get dinner hay at 5:30 so that gets us to about 8:30ish.
Does he get pellets delivered by auto feeder in the middle of the night? (pardon if I missed that, I’m flitting back and forth on a bunch of things today)
If he were mine, and obviously he’s not, I’d be very tempted to feed him for 900 lbs to see what that produced (reduced lol?) over 2 - 3 months. The math of calories in versus calories out doesn’t seem to be working properly when based on 1000lbs.
Would he possibly eat oat, wheat, or barley straw? Maybe mixed with his normal hay, or as a separate hay net with a small (~1lb?) amount of hay mixed in? Might be a PITA to mix and fill a hay net with, but probably still lower calories than even the pellets, while still lasting longer. It’s what I and friends have used to great success with donkeys to help manage their weight and metabolisms. We’ve used baled straw from the feed store or the Standlee chopped straw bedding. That way you can keep or maybe increase his overall forage, while reducing calories. I know there was a study done in the UK a few years ago, let me see if I can find it. Ah ha! https://bvajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1136/vr.105793
Sorry you’re going though this. It can be so tough with these easy keepers! He’s lucky to have you.
He does get them overnight. I just readjusted his machine so he’s getting 2lbs total now in .25lb portions every hour from 11PM to 6AM. I was also bridging between the time his breakfast hay runs out and dinner but I removed those times.
@barnesthenoble I do have some! i had picked up a bale earlier this year when I started weighing his bags and he kind of picks it out or leaves in it the bag lol. I didn’t try for that long because I got a little worried about impaction colic, but I think I’ll start adding in handfuls. If he just picks it out/leaves it, it should still take him longer to get to the hay through the bag. Thanks for that reminder.
Hmm, my horse just gave me a heart attack the other day by lying down for a nap at the “wrong time.” She’s ok, but longer turnout a few days in a row wore her out so she took advantage of a quiet barn to do a full nap instead of the standing cat nap she nomally takes after coming inside.
The point of that? She keeps usual down sleep time of about midnight (earlier if the barn is totally quiet) until about 5am. She doesn’t lie down for 5 hours straight, but most of her eating is done outside those hours.
If you can figure out Charlie’s “do not disturb” hours, that would be a great way to axe a few more calories - adjust the feeder so he gets nothing during his usual down time range.
He seems to be pretty adjustable; if there is no hay he tends to kinda power down until the next meal. I’m thankful he’s so chill as he is about stall rest.
I think I’ve unlocked max chew time; the GG Hay Play bag inside a Hay Chix Extreme slow feed net. I’m sitting with him while he’s eating that now and it’s working quite well. I ordered two more of the Hay Plays so I can prep all his bags that way. I’m going to start putting a couple handfuls of straw in as well to help keep him busy.
Bloodwork is back! Still waiting on hay.
After fiddling around in the ECIR site, I think I’ve got it all straight and according to them, he is positive for severe IR and is considered high risk for laminitis.
I reconfigured his diet to 2% of an ideal weight of 900 pounds (down from 1000) which knocked 2 pounds off what he was getting along with soaking his hay. He was already moving in the right direction weight loss wise so hopefully removing the extra 2lbs and the Thyro-L will help until he’s able to get back into work again.
Notes from the vet were: “borderline high on his insulin levels but still considered normal. High Leptin indicates that the horse is more prone to insulin resistance. I would continue with the Thyro L until we have some weight loss.”
Plan with hay is to try and source tested hay and if we can’t get that, keep soaking. He was moving considerably more comfortably yesterday again as well so that was promising.
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