I’m curious . . . what kind of hay was this? Was it cool season grass or warm season grass?
Also, glad to see Charlie is doing well.
Nope 
(and it’s Mn, not Mg )
it’s a mistake that someone made along the way and has been passing it around, and around, and around. The only ratio is Cu:Zn, which should be in the 1:3-5 range, with 1:4 being ideal.
The mistake is thinking that because the required amounts for an average 500kg horse are 400mg, 100mg, 400mg, and 400mg respectively (fe:cu:zn:mn) that the ratios are the same. They’re not. The only recognized ratio is between Cu and Zn.
Does that mean that a more metabolic horse might benefit from fe:cu being below 10:1, even closer to 4:1? Yep. But that’s addressing the horse and his needs, not assigning a requirement to all horses.
Lots of Fe in forage isn’t bioavailable anyway.
Normal horses have a Fe-uptake regulating hormone. IR/EMS horses don’t see to have that functioning well enough, as the research suggests their metabolic issue allows/causes them to absorb more Fe than the healthy horse.
350mg/lb is 770mg/kg (ppm) which is pretty darn high, and if you’re certain it wasn’t surface contamination, then that’s an outlier for sure
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My mistake re: the Mn vs Mg – I mix them up and when I’m not thinking about it, Mg for Manganese makes sense in my brain, even though it’s wrong).
Interesting. So has there been a debunk of the theory that excess iron can inhibit the uptake of Cu/Zn, thus the need to balance? It’s been a long time since I’ve taken NRC Plus, so it’s entirely possible I’m out of date. I will say that I’ve noticed an improvement in my horse’s hooves and coat the closer I get to that 4:1:3:3–closest I’ve ever gotten is 6:1:3:4, really, but still–but if the science says that’s just circumstantial, so be it. None of my horses are IR, either.
Yes, and there were a few in the 300-350 mg/lb range. The one that dropped after wet analysis to minimize for surface contamination originally came in around 275 and dropped to 200 on re-test. Different growers, fields, cuttings, and suppliers. I’ve occasionally had grass hay tests come back that high, one as high as 374 mg/lb that came down to 240ish mg/lb, but they’ve tended to be much more consistently in the 200ish mg/lb. We are in a fairly high iron area.
ETA: I just want to clarify that I’m not on the “iron is the root of all equine dietary evil” bandwagon by any means. I’ve just noticed pretty clear improvement in my critters when I have the diet dialed in, with the iron:copper:zinc as a significant ratio in my supplementation relative to my forage. My hay tests have always come back with ample Mn, so I don’t supplement that, but I do calculate the full ratio just for my own personal interest and tracking.
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@OzarksRider - Im not 100% certain, its either grass or Timothy or a mix; standard around my area. The 2023 hay season here was all sorts of thrown off from the weather. The vet, the trimmer, and the feed mill all have said the same thing; last years first cut was WAY higher than typical. So far what’s been coming in for this year is trending normal. We got in another load of last years first which I cored last night and will drop off today to see where that clocks in.
@JB, we’ve been soaking his hay for ~12 hours…breakfast goes in the night before and dinner the morning of. Trimmer recommended 16 based on a newer study out of the UK but boy are those recommendations all over the place. As I understand, soaking can start to leech some of the good stuff out too; should I be thinking about replacing anything on that end? We will likely continue soaking until we get the teff and test that which puts us end of July with timing for that. Im guessing the new first cut will be too high since it was last years to feed without soaking.
He’s out of his Cloud Boots as of this week and is quite happy about it. Volume up for low tone squeals lol.
Monday CORRECT video
IMG_3136
Tuesday first time out on driveway surface and he was far more comfortable than I was expecting barefoot:
IMG_3173
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high Fe in soil reduces cu and zn uptake for forage. Here’s a good article on some studies done on minerals interfering, or not, with digestion of other minerals
https://ker.com/equinews/factors-affecting-mineral-digestibility-horses/
Some horses to need a lot more than they “should” on paper. How much Cu and Zn were you supplying, between feed and supplements? Just curious, as I’ve seen people have results when adding in the 300 and 900mg range, respectively, which happened to make the ration at least < 10:1 BUT, the more likely scenario was just the horse needed more, and this is especially true the darker their hair color (pigment requires melanin which requires copper)
you didn’t sound like you were on that bandwagon, no worries! It really is a thing that some horses need what seems like a lot more cu/zn than they “should”, for a variety of reasons, but it’s unlikely that dietary Fe is the reason for so much extra requirement, unless maybe you’re supplying a lot of more bioavailable Fe (which you shouldn’t be doing, not necessary, potentially harmful)
Unless the water is being changed, there’s no more WSC coming out beyond what comes out by around 1 hour
I’d want to know what that study was. I’ve seen some, in the UK, showing a greatly increased risk of fermentation getting into that length of time
It does start leaching out other minerals, so it depends on what you’re feeding now, which I can’t remember LOL But also, 12 hours just isn’t necessary. What’s MORE useful is to use more water, which I realize is not always feasible. But the more water you can use, the more room there is for more WSC to get out
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This is super interesting, thanks for sharing! It’s a rabbit hole I’ll have to go down later.
At the highest, when I was stuck feeding hay that was close to 250 mg/lb iron, I was feeding VT Blend Pro (300mg Cu/900mg Zn) plus 1 tbsp of their Cu/Zn mix (400mg Cu/1100mg Zn), plus about .75lb of TC Sr Gold and 1lb of TC Timothy Balance cubes as carriers. I don’t really factor in the Fe:Cu:Zn of the TC products because I’m feeding such a small amount and they contain relatively small amounts of those trace minerals, anyway.
My horses were each eating ~22-24lbs of hay per day at this time. So my rough math at that time was for 23lbs of hay, their overall dietary ratio was 5750mg Fe : 700mg Cu : 2000mg Zn : 2200ish Mn. For the year I fed that, I still noticed an increased amount of bleaching and poorer-than-previous hoof quality.
Currently my hay is around 175mg/lb Fe so they’re getting VTBP and 1/2 tbsp Cu/Zn. So approx 4,025mg Fe : 500 mg Cu : 1450 mg Zn. I can’t remember the Mn number off the top of my head but it was pretty standard. Everyone looks pretty good, a little bit of bleaching on the dark bay but not bad, especially since they live out, it’s too hot for fly sheets, and they ignore their shed.
They looked their best when I managed to get hay in the 140ishmg/lb Fe a few years ago. Supplementation was identical to what they’re getting now, so 23lbs of hay came to approx 3220 : 500 : 1450.
@JB here is the link she mentioned!
Soaking hay for 20 minutes resulted in the lowest decrease in carbohydrates of only 5%, while soaking hay for up to 16 hours showed the greatest reduction at 27%.
I’d want to find the whole study to find out how much sugar was removed with the middle soaking times
This article references studies done that show soaking 60 minutes can remove 30-40% of the sugar
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I’ve seen it ALL over the board digging into things 
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A couple odd things along the rehab road if anyone has any insight…
Late winter/early spring, there was a noticeable uptick in Charlies salt intake. He’s always been a big fan of the Himalayan salt licks, and Id say a since Ive owned him since 2020, a 7 lb lick would last us 2-3 months or so. Now he is going through them in 2-3 weeks. I mentioned to the vet when he was out for spring shots as a one off thing, but he wasn’t overly concerned at the time. This was new on 6/7 and this was last night so three days. And he does get electrolytes as well:
Last week, he had a LOT of smegma build up! I usually clean his sheath at least twice a year, and he was due…but Ive never seen so much yuck. I noticed it at first on his cannon bones from what I imagine is from tucking his back legs up when he lays down.
Vet is coming next Thursday for his rads so I will bring both things up. I know that laminitis is a huge disruption for them and can wreck havoc but so far people Ive mentioned to are all stumped. The only new thing since the laminitis is being on the thyro-L.
Any thoughts? Any additional blood panels I should be considering having pulled?
He’s otherwise doing really well all things considering.
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Usually means insulin deregulation. Every time my pony gets yucky down there, I need to check his diet and pull blood for meds update.
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Good to know, thanks!
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We had a pony at my stable yard that had massive smegma production. He was insulin resistant but also full blown Equine Metabolic syndrome and laminitis.
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The Himalayan salt licks are considered a big no-no due to added iron.
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I’ve heard a lot about iron but he won’t touch the white blocks. I suppose I could try again with that, but he was not a fan.
no iron added, it’s just not processed to remove it.
That said, Redmond salt, for example, says it averages 500ppm Fe, and 1oz of that then means a measly 14mg. The average 1100lb horse needs 400mg.
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If they only eat/lick 1 oz and what other iron intake do they have?
I was under the impression the blocks are pink due to the iron oxidizing.
I just add salt to their feed to avoid the whole issue.
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Same here. 1 tablespoon of salt in breakfast and dinner. BO has been providing salt licks but I’m not sure she still does. If not, I don’t mind.
At one barn, when I moved my older mare in, there was a 50 pound white salt block in her shed that was maybe 25% gone. She got it down to less than 50% in 3 years. 6 years later, my young mare moved into that same paddock and shed, and I half expected it to still be there!
OP: you say he gets pellets from an automatic dispenser overnight. How much, and how much hay does it replace?
Am considering this for my older mare, who is a very easy keeper and a hay hoover no matter how small her hayne holes are. She is ulcer prone, and I know she’s going for many hours overnight with no hay.
BO uses one for her mare with a very tricky digestive system, and would install it in Feronia’s shed if I buy it.
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