Yes, I think that’s why I was so surpised to see that particular video (an extreme example of how borderline abusive the big lick world can be) and Totilas mentioned in the same post…
[QUOTE=mbm;4270018]
here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My_gRwgErt4
altho before i am slaughtered, it is an intermediarre freestyle . not I1[/QUOTE]
I loved that freestyle, especially the music. How cool that he would use one of my all-time favorite songs - “Lady in Black” by Uriah Heep!
Big Lick is just the style of movement that the TWH with the pads has. It is not necessarily derived from soring the horses, or abusive training practices. In the horses bred for that type of movement, it can come naturally. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford the horses who move like that on their own. So some less-than-moral people use some less-than-kind practices to achieve the desired look.
I was only comparing the movement in the front end with that of the Big Lick horses. It is different to me than the park horses, because with the park horses they focus more on the knee being jerked UP. With the TWH, the focus is more on the leg going up and OUT, which is more what I see in Totilas. He’s not jerking his knees up to his eyeballs with the forearm past parallel to the ground. Its more out.
A couple videos of Totilas from 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7itK8W6J4E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE
Back to the Park horses
I groomed saddlebreds and arabs and they used surgical tubing attached in amazing ways to develop that odd front end movement…that was way back when so I am sure they have invented more ways to get it than they had then. Fire extinguishers were there too. I don’t care for the Totilas extension either but as he evolved into it I suspect he may evolve out of it…unless of course he gets world record setting scores for presenting that trot. He seems to be very trainable and I suspect that as he was pushed for more…he gave more…and as he has incredible athletic ability…out popped this odd trot extension (or showy extension depending on your preference). He is relaxed not flapping, full of tension, wide behind, or frantic like the arabs in that video. This seems a natural evolution for his type of movement and his trainability…I think lots of unexpected variations are going to pop up in top level dressage with these top modern warmbloods. They are simply capable of so much more. Here you got the trainability and the mind with the gaits and “POOF” I do know MY eyebrows popped up when he extended. My first thought was eeewww but it is not horrible, it just REMINDS me of some unhappy training methods. He did NOT developed as he is with fire extinguishers and surgical tubing so the comparison is not fair. It is an interesting world. PatO
I don’t feel it’s a ‘natural evolution’, I think the type of horse at the top is just getting a little more consistent, so we will tend to see more similarity in faults/phases of maturity.
In the past, we saw some very long heavy shouldered horses (power horses, this is the side Salinero very slightly tends toward, but he is overall far more modern and balanced than others), some lighter, more balanced horses, and some horses that weren’t consistent in type at all. The modern type of horse, and the more and more consistent preference and breeding pattern, is for a very hot, active, energetic, naturally balanced, long legged horse that is not too long in the back, light through the shoulders with a very ideal femur and hind quarter conformation.
To withstand the rigors of years of competition and many shows per year, and to make a picture that seems effortless and allows the rider to use the most subtle, refined aids, the preference seems more and more consistently for a lighter, shorter backed, long legged horse with a lot of natural get up and go, which one gradually controls and reduces tension in, rather than having to hold and balance the horse and produce activity.
It is odd to hear people say any horse that lifts its feet must have something in common with other horses that lift their feet, must be trained the same way, even though everything else is different. Very odd, and concerns me as it makes me think people have a poor eye for both fundamentals and details of dressage training, ie, very little ability to observe either fundamentals or details.
All GP horses have faults, it takes about 2-3 years for a horse to mature as a GP horse.
General lack of strength, specific problem movements, this is normal rather than an exception. Very talented horses are not excluded, nor are experienced riders. This is just another part of training and competition, and it’s always incredibly interesting and fun to see the horses mature at GP, because they get better and better, and because, simply by working on very, very basic things, experienced trainers fix things you simply think they can’t fix.
Training, lest we forget, is a gradual process. Even the top GP horses in the world are progressing and developing as we watch. We are literally watching them learn GP over the years.
Klimke had a problem with Ahlerich moving irregularly in the pirouettes that he very openly discussed; other horses have had tapping hind toes in piaffe (Balkenhol’s Goldstern, which amazingly improved), Farbenfroh and Weltstern had Gumby-horse problems at extended gaits (part of Farben’s problem there seemed to be conformational but much of it appeared to be his rather overflowing joie de vivre - Weltstern was a true gumby horse who responded to his own mental tension by flinging himself excitedly in all directions), and just about every horse that has been in the public eye at the top of GP has had various technical issues to overcome.
What is really intriguing, is not that the problems are there, but that many of those problems get fixed.
Some horses have faults that they never completely overcome, such as Ganimede’s wow-glad-that-s-over-piaffe(compensated for by the best extended trot in the universe, which the horse appeared to be waiting during the entire test to get a chance to show off that extended trot) or Rembrandt’s slightly drooping forearms in the piaffe. It seemed that was just a part of achieving that incredibly steady rhythm for him, and those ‘automatic transmission’ transitions in and out of piaffe and passage. So like all horses, he lost points in certain places and gained them back elsewhere.
I don’t think the slow rhythm at extended trot is intentional(the rhythm at all forms of a gait is supposed to be roughly equal, at least that is the goal, though the piaffe rhythm is by nature a little quicker and the passage rhythm usually slightly slower, the rhythm at the extended trot is not supposed to slow down THIS much). Gal doesn’t do it with his other horses, Totilas doesn’t do it all the time. I think it’s a strength-tension issue. I think that and the openness at the throat will improve with time, but don’t expect this horse to ever look like a hunter at the extended trot, it will not and can not happen.
It will never, ever cease to amaze me how much people on bulletin boards seem to expect; in fact, they expect perfection at every single moment from every rider and horse at the top…with the exception that the very demanding and critical eye seems to go to sleep every time horses and riders from their own country hit the stage. 
[QUOTE=slc2;4271852]
It is odd to hear people say any horse that lifts its feet must have something in common with other horses that lift their feet, must be trained the same way, even though everything else is different. Very odd, and concerns me as it makes me think people have a poor eye for both fundamentals and details of dressage training, ie, very little ability to observe either fundamentals or details.[/QUOTE]
Slick.
Would you PLEASE read.
I even specifically mentioned, in order to avert this exact reading comprehension fail, that saying that Totilas’s exaggerated movement reminds me of a big lick horse’s movement IS NOT saying that I think Edward Gal rides/trains him the way big lick horses are trained. See post #41.
Here I specifically said that I was NOT making a comparison of riding/training methods in posting the video, and here you are yammering about how people who merely suggest that the MOVEMENT THAT IS POPULAR WITH THE DRESSAGE JUDGES THESE DAYS IS STARTING TO LOOK SIMILAR to big lick horses flailihg around think “any horses that lift their feet must be trained the same way.”
Even with a specific preemptive clarification you still run headlong into logic fail and commence strident yammer. Try spending a little more time working on your ability to observe the fundamentals and details of READING.
Okay, first just wanted to say, I grew up riding/training saddlebreds and earlier, arabs. You may think some of the training techniques are odd, but that doesn’t make them cruel, just different. Remember, saddle seat and dressage have VERY different end goals. There are some strengthening “gadgets,” as dressage people like to call them, that help build muscle for that kind of movement. The surgical tubing is attached to two cuffs that go around each front ankle. They basically are a way to encourage the horse to balance on his hind end so he can free up his front end. They build strength and help the horse, really, they aren’t hard on them - you use them for about 5 minutes MAX. Also, as far as fire extinguishers go, they just puff it a little bit at the far end of the arena to “ear up” the horses. It’s hardly cruel… Seems strange to non-saddle seaters, but that’s all it really is, strange.
However, Columbus, I do think you were saying that though those techniques do exist as training tools in saddle seat, they are not likely to have been used on Totilas, clearly. Also, many saddlebreds can trot with the same action that Totilas does very early on w/out training. They must move higher than that to win at the top levels, however, so they are trained to enhance that natural ability.
So, I guess all I’m saying is that though some think Totilas’ trot looks mechanical, it’s actually the way he was born and bred to move. As his training progresses, I’m sure we’ll see him evolve even more. Slc makes EXCELLENT points in explaining that training is a process, and each step of the way brings changes. He’s far from “finished” and perfect, and I’m very excited to watch him.
Also @ meup: I understood the intention of your post. You didn’t say he’s getting beat on and being trained with weighted boots, you just said he reminds you of horses that may experience shady training. But in comparing him to as touchy a discipline as the big lick TWHs, you had to expect some people might be a little put off, haha. And I think slc’s post may have been directed to a broader audience (she didn’t quote you) because some have speculated in the past that Totilas looks like he’s been trained with gadgets or that he MUST be getting horrifically Rollkurred daily by big bad EG to move like that = )
[QUOTE=bort84;4272445]
or that he MUST be getting horrifically Rollkurred daily by big bad EG to move like that = )[/QUOTE]
i suggest that since EG trains with rollkur and has been very successful with it, and since there are vids out there with him curling Totilas over quite clearly - that it is kind of silly to assume he isnt using rollkur in hs daily training regime.
Sure, but I think the definition of rollkur is different to different people… There are varying degrees of flexion, and I don’t necessarily see a horse getting worked BTV for a bit and call that rollkur (such a dirty word). I think many people say rollkur and mean nose cranked to chest 90% of the ride while the hind end gets whipped along (“crank and spank?”) That was the image I intended when I said “big bad EG rollkurring poor Totilas all day long.” Shoot, some people had a fit when the very quiet and pleasant warmup of Ravel and SP showed Ravel being 5 degrees BTV.
I have never had the opportunity to watch EG train in person, so I’m not going to comment overmuch on his methods. But Totilas looks like he’s relaxing into his work. Hopefully EG can keep a handle on his hot brain and keep him mentally sound = )
I guess my main point (not directed at you mbm) is that Totilas can be a freak without being a product of unsavory training. We will see if EG can keep Totilas at the top of his game for a lengthy career. Time will tell whether his method is correct or not. I don’t think a horse like Totilas (clearly hot and likely quite sensitive) would put up with anything like “crank and spank” for very long unless he just has the most outstanding temperment ever. In which case, sign me up for some of his babies! (well, sign me up for some of his babies anyway, haha)
[QUOTE=bort84;4272649]
I don’t necessarily see a horse getting worked BTV for a bit and call that rollkur[/QUOTE]
right, neither do i… however, “working BTV a little bit” is not what i have seen in vids… and since the vids are public clinics etc, i hardly think it shows the true magnitude of what the training involves… sooo… the degree of curling should be observed with that in mind… and the degree of btv is a tad more than “slightly btv” :lol::lol: altho it isnt with feet on the dashboard etc.
i do agree however that only time will tell… eventually pics and vids will come out with them training and we will get to see a more “real” picture.
i don’t like Gal as a rider - He has great skill as a test rider, but i think he is very hard on his horses and many of them revolt. I do hope Totilas stays sound and mentally fresh because he is a super horse. I don’t like his front legs… but he is a very very athletic horse.
I have also heard this before (though I have no actual experience to base it on), but each horse teaches us something. Perhaps Totilas will help him become softer if he’s truly a bit hard on his horses. He’s a once in a lifetime horse and one worth pulling out all the stops for.
You’re very smart. Trainers don’t just make horses great; horses make trainers great. It’s a two way street.
Revolt? Source, please.
all you have to do is watch him ride… a couple of his horse start shutting down… their gaits deteriorate.
of course i am not the only person who sees this… so it aint just me!
Which horses? This is your opinion, but not everyone has the same opinion. Gribaldi is 16 and still in his barn. I never thought Gribaldi appeared to ‘deteriorate’.
But all top level horses eventually retire, the work is hard and eventually it’s time to stop. If that means they are ‘deteriorating’…that’s pretty odd, really.
Maybe they do so well in the show ring becuase that is the only place they get to see where they are going and they are so happy:lol::lol::lol:
So do they revolt?
(verb) rebellion, insurrection, revolt, rising, uprising
organized opposition to authority; a conflict in which one faction tries to wrest control from another
Or do they deteriorate?
(verb) devolve, deteriorate, drop, degenerate
grow worse
Not even close to the same. So, mbm, when you say it’s obvious from watching him ride, I wonder if you live in Holland and get to watch him often? Or are you watching YouTube snippets? Usually I think you bring a lot to the table in this BB, but I think you are mixing up facts with your opinions here. And your “rumors”. This is the stuff that gets carried on like it is fact, when indeed he just isn’t your cup of tea.
I saw him, Anky, and HPM in Wellington this year. Lovely, lovely riders. I watched them warm up–and wouldn’t you know, it wasn’t rollkur for 45 minutes! I even saw a warm up at 10:00 at night when the place was largely deserted.
I like Ravel, I like Totilas. Not even apples and oranges so much. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Each has a good trainer. I can guarantee that SP would get the same over the top movement from Totilas–you see this movement more and more in the modern type upper level horses. It is your prerogative to not like it, however bashing trainers is not furthering that cause.
[QUOTE=Pony Fixer;4273729]
It is your prerogative to not like it, however bashing trainers is not furthering that cause.[/QUOTE]
just curious. at what point does my opinion become “bashing”? I have said nothing personal, all my comments have been about what can be seen by watching vids (no i am not in holland) of his horses over time.
[quote=mbm;4267463] i personally think it would be put to better use and be much more beautiful, under a different rider…
as for him being 9 - hopefully he will stand up the rigors of top dressage and not disappear like some other super horses we could mention.
[/quote]
[quote=mbm;4272696]i do agree however that only time will tell… eventually pics and vids will come out with them training and we will get to see a more “real” picture.
i don’t like Gal as a rider… i think he is very hard on his horses and many of them revolt. I do hope Totilas stays sound and mentally fresh because he is a super horse.
[/quote]
[quote=mbm;4273292]all you have to do is watch him ride… a couple of his horse start shutting down… their gaits deteriorate.
[/quote]
Your posts on this thread state how you don’t like him, he’s hard on horses, you “hope” he’ll hold up (presumably to that hard life), and that the training is suspect. You also say this is obvious from the current videos out there in the ether. To say you don’t like Gal as a ride is one thing (opinion), to continue on about the horse’s training (and saying it’s basically fact–see it’s all there on the video!) is borderline bashing.
I get it, you don’t like him. I get it, you don’t like the horse. I get it, you don’t like the “training”. However, since you’ve never witnessed Gal, the horse, or the training with your own eyes in real life, I don’t think you can “state the facts” like you are.
Maybe it’s just me, but you seem to really to be wanting to hammer in this point, and I’m not sure why…and since I don’t know your level of training I can’t comment on whether your opinion on the training is even valid…
[QUOTE=Pony Fixer;4275439]
Your posts on this thread state how you don’t like him, he’s hard on horses, you “hope” he’ll hold up (presumably to that hard life), and that the training is suspect. You also say this is obvious from the current videos out there in the ether. To say you don’t like Gal as a ride is one thing (opinion), to continue on about the horse’s training (and saying it’s basically fact–see it’s all there on the video!) is borderline bashing.
I get it, you don’t like him. I get it, you don’t like the horse. I get it, you don’t like the “training”. However, since you’ve never witnessed Gal, the horse, or the training with your own eyes in real life, I don’t think you can “state the facts” like you are.
Maybe it’s just me, but you seem to really to be wanting to hammer in this point, and I’m not sure why…and since I don’t know your level of training I can’t comment on whether your opinion on the training is even valid…[/QUOTE]
Amen !
