The Legacy Cup - a Big $$$ Spotlight for Hunters

VT, you are too funny! I too will bring my mediocre riding talents, but probably leave my horse at home. She’s still green and we won’t be ready for that kind of prime time by next May. I should rephrase that, if my trainer shows her, she’s ready for anything – but then again he doesn’t make mistakes!

Leadline, that sounds about the right speed. LOL. Maybe a costume leadline class???

Do you or cfs ever get to NY? If so maybe we can schedule the family reunion sooner? Send me an email and let me know…

How does one qualify for the Legacy Cup?

If you will bear with me…some observations (and reiteration of others points);

Much of the criticism and concern seems to be the result to a belief that the rise in 3 foot and other lower divisions is at the expense of the higher hunter divisions (ie 3 ft 6 and above). That the lower divisions are in fact draining the higher divisions. These opinions are based on a correlation in the timing of these events.

However…other possible causes for this phenomenon (greater attendence in lower divisions during the same period that the higher divisions have shrunk) is that the lower divisions cater to folks that were much less likely to have competed or even participated in this sport 15 - 30 years ago.

If I understand correctly the numbers do say more and more folks are participating in equestrian sports… many, as has been pointed out, are adults that did not participate as juniors. Or they are juniors whose families did not or do not participate., and are part timers. They do not/have not had the opportunities to immerse themselves in the sport, no pony clubs or fox hunting, or growing up riding bare back on fierce ponies. The current economic situation and the societal changes that allow more women to make financial decisions, like buying and maintaining horses, have contributed to this.

It has taken a while but my point is that perhaps these are not the folks that would have participated in the higher levels in the past and are not ‘draining’ those levels but are instead contributing at a different level.

The lack of participation in the higher levels could be perception…ie it has remained the same but appears diminished in comparison to the surge in lower level riders. This perception could be made worse by the fact that those showing at the higher levels are concentrating on the bigger shows and not the one days etc.

Or the riders that traditionally would have participated in the higher levels are being drawn to some of the other disciplines that have grown in popularity over the same period…ie eventing, jumpers and dressage.
And some may be turned off because of the current emphasis on ‘quiet, perfect’ rounds etc etc.

My suggestion would be instead of ‘blaming’ those riding 3 ft and below…and trying to limit their participation…efforts should be made to increase the opportunities outside showing. I would love to see ( and participate in) a real organized effort at Adult Pony Clubs, more opportunity for hunting type experiences, adult riding camps, more clinics at the big show grounds that allow practice at higher heights in those venues in a less stressful atmosphere.

These opportunities might help in addition addition to a return to the more traditional A, B and C shows and more support for B and C venues, and other suggestions that have been made.

[This message has been edited by cbv (edited 10-05-2000).]

Well, now Snowbird, that is an interesting proposition. And I think the answer is that it depends. I’ve been on both sides, having done A/O and dropped back to A/A when it first started 20 years ago. And then I quit altogether.

I think the problem goes deeper than money although that is definitely an issue. The average amateur didn’t grow up riding anything and everything the way we did. And even now upon returning, even if I could quit work and ride 2-3 horses a day, 6 days a week the way I used to, I’m still not sure I want to. The mind still remembers how to and the body would perhaps come around, BUT the instinct for self preservation has kicked in. And the realization that there’s nobody to take care of me except ME! So I probably will never jump that high again.

And since I won’t, my assumption would be that someone who didn’t grow up jumping big fences and started riding in their 30’s or 40’s probably wouldn’t either.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
[B]I have a hunch that if as I proposed the situation were reversed the whole philosophy of excuses would disappear. Adults worked just as much maybe more 10 years ago, they had just as many responsibilities and fears.

I have the feeling that all these reasons would vanish if these divisions were all C-Rated as are the 3’0" divisions and if they ran on one day as do the 3’0" divisions.

Don’t forget these are a relatively new phenomenon created simultaneously with the the “Increment System” and the 2 day rule.

I just find it illogical that people 10 years ago were braver, more confident or more foolish if you prefer. I believe in motivation and I think the present system has simply taken away any reason or benefit from risking 3’6". And, with a 3’0" goal what I see is the less dedicated limiting themselves to 2’6". So the bar is dropping and that 6 inches is getting bigger and bigger.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was showing ten years ago, and I have to say the only difference I see is that people “save” their horses more for the shows they truly enjoy attending.

The numbers have recently been about the same as they were then in the three foot and the three six divisions, up until one- maybe two years ago. I suspect the reason for this is that the economy has been so good that more people have the disposable income to buy or lease a new horse to show.

As I stated earlier, most amateurs that I know buy young prospects. Young horses need experience and they need to physically mature before they can compete at three six. So, these horses compete at three foot, as well they should. Leased horses are no eligible for the three six, so they do do the three foot. This makes the three foot division larger proportionally than the three six. In a few years the ratio will change again and the opposite will be true. If we have a down turn in the economy, all the current young adult horses will be A/O horses and no one will be purchasing new horses who would have been showing at three foot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rosie:

So, someone competing at 3’ is somehow less talented, brave, trained, etc. than someone competing at 3-6 and up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but someone competing at 3’ is doing something LESS DIFFICULT than someone competing at 3’6".

This is spoken as someone who has only competed at 3’6" a couple of times (and not very sucessfully) as an adult, but competed as a junior when EVERYTHING was 3’6".

Just as someone competing at Training level is doing somethin LESS DIFFICULT than someome competing at Third level.

Well, there is this small indoor arena located in Northern new Hampshire that is fairly centrally located…And it would be a cheap location too…shall we?

DMK- Your just so smart…Such an out of the box thinker. I’l ladd you to my list of Idols (oh wait! Your already there…one, two, THREE times!)

Open numerical scoring, TEN judges, 2 panels of 5!!! Gotta like that!

I’ve mostly been doing schooling shows in CT but am starting to venture out to local rated shows and So. Eastern NY would not be out of the question…

I’m hoping my youngster has grown up enough by next May, but for sure the following May. We could definately do the leadline though…

I think slugger that while you are right on about the 3’0" divisions being the most popular and the most profitable I’m not sure they are an end unto themselves.

I totally agree with the chance to very elegantly showcase the excellence in these sections. BUT and it’s a BIG BUT if we look at the overall need to stimulate progress then the gradual disappearance of the 3’6" divisions is not good sign.

15 years ago were the horses so much better and the riders so much better that all the 3’6" divisions were filled at A Shows and they didn’t even offer anything for a horse and rider at 3’0" for hunters.

When we had 30 Junior Hunters at a one day A Show were those horses so much better that people felt safer jumping at 3’6"?

I can remember having so many ponies and junior hunters at our New Jersey Shows that we couldn’t finish the show without turning down entries. When exhibitors wanted to scratch as a show manager we said Thank-You that’s really kind of you to help us.

So then what in your opinion is the reason that these divisions have disappeared at the C/B Level and except for the extravaganza shows they are filling very lightly. If what I say was not true, we wouldn’t need a rule that permits the Junior Hunter and Amateur Hunters to be combined, or the Green and the Regular to be combined.

15 years ago that was not an issue, we paid out twice the prize money and charged half for the entry fee. Officials prices haven’t gone up that much! Ribbons and trophies can still be affordable. So why is this so!

Why do people all want to be limited to 3’0"?
Is it because we don’t have teachers? or because we don’t have riders? or because we no longer have horses capable of feeling safe and confident at 3’6"?

What I would rather see is some discussion on why a Grand Prix Rider can cross enter into the A/O hunters? It happens. And why can a Grand Prix rider cross into the Junior Jumpers or Amateur Owner Jumpers? Fine for a Junior it is remarkable to be competing at that level, but hey if you have the horses and can then give up the Junior Jumpers?

See current rule change proposals. There is one that would not allow Juniors and Amateurs competing at the GP level to also compete at the Jr/A level during the SAME YEAR. There is another one tightening the rules for the Amateur status. Both are excellent and need your support.

This is interesting. While I support the 3 foot divisions, I was concerned at some of the attitudes that have been expressd in previous threads about how there are many trainers/riders who don’t seem to be interested in even trying 3’6. They like to keep their students/themselves at the 3 foot level. What has happened to wanting to improve in your sport and reach the next level? Three foot is good, but too me, jumping means over the 3’6 mark - anything lower and your horse is not really “jumping” as Janet pointed out.

When I was learning to ride - the big thing was to be good enought to jumpe 3’6!! Now that was an accomplishment! We knew that when our trainer started allowing us into the bigger divions, it meant that we had learned appropriate skills to move up, and that she was confident in our abilities. I don’t seem to see that happening what with the plethora of lower height classes. 3 foot is good, but it doesn’t teach your to showjump the way 3’6 does. Which is why our European counterparts are so much better - none of their horse shows have anything below 3’6.

I can’t help thinking that by keeping so many championship level classes at 3’, the system is only going to encourage people to become more nervous about attempting the next level, seeing as its just so easy to stay at 3’.

Hey Bertie, thanks for the compliment in your very first post (I JUST tuned into this thread), however, these days, when I think about competing against (gulp) that current crowd of amateurs (olders AND youngers!)… well… would anybody mind if I return to the adults? I mean, really, I only just got to the amateurs… I don’t think anyone in the adults actually noticed I was gone…

Slugger…I was pretty sure a southbound stork flew over my head today carrying an amateur for delivery to WEF (like everyone else, they too have to go through Atlanta’s airport)…

As for the difference between 3’0 and 3’6, well I absolutely think we SHOULD provide recognition to the 3’0 events!!! If someone wants to ride at 3’0, more power to them - this is after all, by very definition of the term “amateur”, a HOBBY!!! Why in God’s name would anyone want to pursue a hobby if it didn’t give them enjoyment and personal satisfaction? All the reasons cited above are valid reasons for “staying” at 3’0. I also don’t think it is significantly affecting or otherwise holding back those riders who want to go on and jump higher.

But… for those who do want to jump higher (and after my recent foray, I am wondering WHY anyone would want to - I haven’t shown since July… the fences are starting to look bigger again), the two things that do keep you from moving up easier is first, a lack of a 3’3 A/A division (someone else on this thread proposed it, and I will probably be buried with an epitath saying “all she wanted was a 3’3 A/A division”). It is a whole different ride to 3’6 and much less tolerant of pilot error. 3’3 goes a long way to bridging that gap, and gives the rider a chance to feel a forward riding course set off a true 13’ step. Second, the current cost of a horse “perceived” to have 3’6 talent… I say “perceived” because I think there are lots of horses who have the talent, I just don’t believe there are that many trainers, especially at the lower level shows who have the talent to bring it out.

OK, time to brush off the old jumping skills and try to make 3’6 look like a “jumpable” jump again… well to be honest, a 3’6 vertical never gave me a concern…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
[B] No, but someone competing at 3’ is doing something LESS DIFFICULT than someone competing at 3’6".

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that depends on the horse…

It would be easier to take a machine around a 3’6" course (if the rider is able) than a pregreen horse around 3’ - IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
[B]well, if we are talking personal convenience, let’s talk Georgia International Horse Park

As much as I like the KY location, what does everyone think of the idea of holding at the same time as the eventing WC? OK, I know that it would be a planner’s nightmare, and take LOTS of work, but as all those annoying marketing people told me when I was in ops - “Think outside the box!”

Besides, I have always wanted to go up and see the WC, but never made the time… I wonder how many other h/j people would do the same if they “shared space”? [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK are you refering to the same week as the ROLEX???

Ummm, I appreciate the concept, but the reality is that Rolex is the busiest weekend in Lexington due to the large number of SPECTATORS it draws. Every hotel for about 100 miles is sold out.

The larger H/J shows already fill every stall at the horse park and some utilize tents in addition to the 1000+ permanent salls.

So the biggest issue would be - where to put both the Rolex horses and all the Hunters.

The next biggest issue would be hotel space for the exhibitors AND spectators. Since Rolex already is a “sell out” I doubt the Rolex organizers nor the Lexington COC would endorse combining these two events.

OTOH Holding a “Legacy Cup” type of event during Kentucky Spring would make sense to me. For the past two years these two weeks of AA shows at the KHP in May are literally a Devon Prevue.

This wold address both the issue of “central” location and help those who are already driving from the West coast on their way to Devon IMO.

Actually the GIHP is more “central” than VA IMO and is not a bad option either.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AHC:
[B]VT Rider, me too! I was not fortunate enough to have a horse to do the 3’6" on as a junior, so never became comfortable at that height. And as an adult with a full-time job, and a healthy understanding about my limits due to time and ability, I am thrilled that there are 3’ options for me and my horse. If my circumstances change, I would love to try to do the A/Os, but I don’t like to be made to feel like an incompetent who doesn’t deserve to be at the table because I don’t do them now.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AHC - Are you my long lost twin? I am in the exact same boat!!!

What exactly would be wrong with showcasing the 3’ and 3’6"?

I’m in agreement with AHC, VTRider, and Co. on this issue. There is place for the adult amateur division, and it is important not only financially for the horse shows but for the riders and horses.

People who get into riding as adults, people who didn’t ride ultra-competively as juniors and are now adults, people who are not comfortable when the jumps get higher, and juniors and adults alike who lack the time or financial means necessary to do the jr.‘s and a/o’s are the people who show in the child/adult divisions. They are no less competant, talented, or important than the people who show at 3’6" and 4’. There isn’t anything wrong with these divisions. Why is there such hostility towards them?

We would all like to have the talent of Katherine Burdsall and the financial means of Ross Perot, but the reality is many of us have neither. Those with one or the other are fortunate, and may they enjoy it with good health and health disposition. For the rest of us, the ch/adult divisions give us a place to compete and enjoy our riding. Most horsepeople spend 90% to 100% of their disposable income on this sport, regardless of what level they compete at. We’re all equal in that regard. Why is there such an intense need to segregate into groups of “real” competitors and “little” competitors?

It is precisely this attitude that prevents unity in our sport. How can we expect the USET and AHSA to respect each other and work together when we, the membership, can’t do the same when simply discussing horse shows? I’m beginning to think this superior attitude that some of us have has more to do with the unpleasant state of horse shows in this country than anything else. This foolish snobbery will do nothing except retard our progress.

In contrast to the amateurs of yesteryear, many of today’s A/A riders are people who are holding down full time jobs, and often have children. Many didn’t begin riding until they were adults. Their time in the saddle is limited. And often the best horse they can afford is a good 3 foot horse, that doesn’t have the stride or scope to do the 3’6" safely.

My guess is that these people show hunters BECAUSE there are competitive and enjoyable 3’ divisions available to them. If the 3’ divisions did not exist, would these riders be showing hunters at 3’6"? Don’t think so. More likely they’d be participating in some other sport, and our sport would be the loser.

Yes, the 3’6" divisions need to be attractive and available to those with the time & skill to compete at that height. Snowbird, why are shows paying half the prize money and charging double the entry fees in those divisions as opposed to 15 years ago?

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 10-05-2000).]

Thanks for the great post, cbv. We agree, but I think you said it better.

Maybe the 3’ divisions should only allow children under 15 and adult amateurs over 40.