"the no grain diet"

[JB]

:lol: :lol:

Exactly. And it’s stuff like that which automatically calls into question everything else, which means it all needs to be evaluated. Can you IMAGINE how many people have dewormed like that when their FEC was 50 or 75, because of how popular his site (and that “your horse doesn’t need grain” blog) is? :rolleyes: He clearly missed the boat that the goal with horses is NOT to completely clean them out, that it’s the presence of a small parasite load which keeps their immune system working to keep their parasite load low. Yikes.

[HJdaydream]

@stb

I tried it for a while on a horse who has anhidrosis. I did think I saw improvement but it was short lived and incomplete. I also saw a loss of topline and overall condition due to taking him off of his ration balancer. He just didn’t look good.

Hi stb, not to derail the convo, but did you every find anything that work for your horse’s anhidrosis? Mine stops sweating around July and won’t start again till maybe October. Every year. I feel like the only thing I haven’t tried is a grain and sugar free (no beet pulp etc) diet but he is HUGE and I worry about him getting enough nutrition that way. Curious if you ever found a solution.

[stb]

@HJdaydream

Hi stb, not to derail the convo, but did you every find anything that work for your horse’s anhidrosis? Mine stops sweating around July and won’t start again till maybe October. Every year. I feel like the only thing I haven’t tried is a grain and sugar free (no beet pulp etc) diet but he is HUGE and I worry about him getting enough nutrition that way. Curious if you ever found a solution.

I did, actually. Platinum Performance Wellness and Platinum Refresh. Works great for him. I have tried lots of other things but none work like the Platinum products.

[Doctor_sOrders]

I think a lot of people who are tied up in this grain free stuff for their pets (or even themselves, looking at you keto diet) are just trying to do the best they can. When we look at the discussion from that POV it reminds me of an economics class I had a while back. I’ll try not to butcher it.

The prof demonstrated an example regarding volunteer service. Let’s say you want to volunteer your time to build birdhouses for an endangered species of bird. You can:
A.) Volunteer your time to build the birdhouses yourself.
B.) Donate money that goes towards hiring a carpenter to build those birdhouses.

Most people prefer option A because of the altruistic feeling it gives them. We get much more satisfaction volunteering our time and performing the task ourselves than donating money.

However, option B is likely to provide a higher quantity of better built birdhouses.

I apply that line of thinking towards commercial feeds for my animals. Yes, I can likely spend the time and energy building a diet for my horse out of “rough” materials like beet pulp, vit/min supplements, etc. I will probably gain more satisfaction knowing I created that diet! Look how good I am to my animals! But I only have a passing understanding of equine and feline dietary needs and think it is probably safer to leave these formulations in the hands of scientists and professionals who have the proper expertise. So I choose commercial feeds that meet my horses needs.

This should all be taken with a grain of salt. If you really have the knowledge that it takes to DIY equine feed (as @JB does) go for it!
If your horse has a specific allergy/need/whatever and your vet/a qualified nutritionist think it needs a certain diet, by all means follow that diet.

But as an average equine owner, most of us are probably best off leaving it to the professionals and by professionals I don’t mean your riding instructor or barn owner. I mean the scientists formulating feeds backed by science.

As owners, we are advocates for our animals. I try my best to arm myself with a wide range of somewhat shallow knowledge. Then when I am out of my depths, I bring in the professional. I would love to have a deep and wide range of knowledge but there are only so many hours in the day.

[Ghazzu]

@Moshposh

Soybean meal, copra, whey…
low quality would be something like cereal grains

I wouldn’t make a blanket statement like that.
Many cereal grains have a decent amino acid profile.

[JB]

Thanks @Doctor’sOrders ! :o

[Guilherme]

@Doctor'sOrders

I think a lot of people who are tied up in this grain free stuff for their pets (or even themselves, looking at you keto diet) are just trying to do the best they can. When we look at the discussion from that POV it reminds me of an economics class I had a while back. I’ll try not to butcher it.

The prof demonstrated an example regarding volunteer service. Let’s say you want to volunteer your time to build birdhouses for an endangered species of bird. You can:
A.) Volunteer your time to build the birdhouses yourself.
B.) Donate money that goes towards hiring a carpenter to build those birdhouses.

Most people prefer option A because of the altruistic feeling it gives them. We get much more satisfaction volunteering our time and performing the task ourselves than donating money.

However, option B is likely to provide a higher quantity of better built birdhouses.

I apply that line of thinking towards commercial feeds for my animals. Yes, I can likely spend the time and energy building a diet for my horse out of “rough” materials like beet pulp, vit/min supplements, etc. I will probably gain more satisfaction knowing I created that diet! Look how good I am to my animals! But I only have a passing understanding of equine and feline dietary needs and think it is probably safer to leave these formulations in the hands of scientists and professionals who have the proper expertise. So I choose commercial feeds that meet my horses needs.

This should all be taken with a grain of salt. If you really have the knowledge that it takes to DIY equine feed (as @JB does) go for it!
If your horse has a specific allergy/need/whatever and your vet/a qualified nutritionist think it needs a certain diet, by all means follow that diet.

But as an average equine owner, most of us are probably best off leaving it to the professionals and by professionals I don’t mean your riding instructor or barn owner. I mean the scientists formulating feeds backed by science.

As owners, we are advocates for our animals. I try my best to arm myself with a wide range of somewhat shallow knowledge. Then when I am out of my depths, I bring in the professional. I would love to have a deep and wide range of knowledge but there are only so many hours in the day.

Many years ago I attended an equine nutrition presentation put on by Purina. They said the same thing then that you are saying now. I’ve also attended a couple of general equine health programs put on by the UT Vet School in Knoxville. And they said the same thing.

From time to time we’ve supplemented grain-based feeds with additional items if the horse showed a need for such things. If they don’t the I see no reason to enrich the makers and sellers of these un-needed products.

G.

[mvp]

@Ghazzu

I wouldn’t make a blanket statement like that.
Many cereal grains have a decent amino acid profile.

Yes, but Tucker believes that because horses didn’t evolve to eat cereal grains in the concentration we’d feed them in order to get that range of amino acids (and he believes they (the seed coats?) have inflammatory properties), he’d disqualify those grains as something you’d include. (At least, this is my understanding). At that point, you still need to include the diversity of amino acids that a horse won’t get from those grains or from his mono-grass diet.

[quietann]

@S1969

How would you know if a horse was eating something only because it had a bellyache? How would you know it had a bellyache to begin with?

I only know what my mare’s breeders told me. That they only saw horses eating this plant when they looked a little uncomfortable, like they had gas. They had very very few colics in any case.

I also wonder about observational learning in a herd like hers, which was typically 10 to 20 mares, foals, and young stock (1 to 3 YO fillies.) In some other species, each individual does not have to try a food to “know” what it is/does; they learn by watching others. (Rats are pretty well known for this.)

[ParadoxFarm]

@JB

What did you switch to, and what brands do you have available?

I switched him to Hallway’s Fibrenergy. I’ve tried TC (Complete and Senior) and ProElite Performance. I can probably get anything. I have a great local feed store.

[Ghazzu]

@mvp

Yes, but Tucker believes that because horses didn’t evolve to eat cereal grains in the concentration we’d feed them in order to get that range of amino acids (and he believes they (the seed coats?) have inflammatory properties), he’d disqualify those grains as something you’d include. (At least, this is my understanding). At that point, you still need to include the diversity of amino acids that a horse won’t get from those grains or from his mono-grass diet.

How many horses get a “mono-grass” diet, though?

[mvp]

@Ghazzu

How many horses get a “mono-grass” diet, though?

His point is that almost all of them do, at least in comparison to wild horses. Think of the hay we buy— it’s all one commercial grass crop or another. Perhaps some folks mix. But there’s not a wide variety.

[Ghazzu]

@mvp

His point is that almost all of them do, at least in comparison to wild horses. Think of the hay we buy— it’s all one commercial grass crop or another. Perhaps some folks mix. But there’s not a wide variety.

Not any hay I can recall buying. It’s always been mixed species.

[hank]

@Ghazzu

How many horses get a “mono-grass” diet, though?

I would guess nearly ALL of them in Arizona and California. Lol. The Giant Bermuda is pretty free of all other species.
Your hay mileage will vary in other geographical locations.

[Ghazzu]

@hank

I would guess nearly ALL of them in Arizona and California. Lol. The Giant Bermuda is pretty free of all other species.
Your hay mileage will vary in other geographical locations.

I guess so. In the northeast, one doesn’t see bermudagrass at all.
Mixed timothy, orchardgrass, some clover, bluegrass, etc.

[Guilherme]

@Ghazzu

How many horses get a “mono-grass” diet, though?

I would guess anywhere you have mono-grass pastures or hay fields. This can be naturally ('cause only a very limited number of grass species will produce in that place) or because the farmer who planted the field used only a single grass variety.

Many alfalfa fields fall into that second category. There are some people the TN Valley who produce hay that will have single grass varieties available. Tall Fescue is VERY widely grown in this area and many hay producers make only that variety. That’s of limited impact unless you’re involved in running brood stock. In horses it’s catastrophic; in some other species it can reduce productivity.

G.

[Ghazzu]

@Guilherme

I would guess anywhere you have mono-grass pastures or hay fields. This can be naturally ('cause only a very limited number of grass species will produce in that place) or because the farmer who planted the field used only a single grass variety.

Many alfalfa fields fall into that second category. There are some people the TN Valley who produce hay that will have single grass varieties available. Tall Fescue is VERY widely grown in this area and many hay producers make only that variety. That’s of limited impact unless you’re involved in running brood stock. In horses it’s catastrophic; in some other species it can reduce productivity.

G.

I thought about alfalfa, but dismissed it because the comment to which I was responding as “mono-grass”, an alfalfa isn’t a grass.

Even though I read about bermudagrass, having never lived where it is even available, much less about the only game in town, it didn’t occur to me until it was pointed out.

[stb]

@Ghazzu

I thought about alfalfa, but dismissed it because the comment to which I was responding as “mono-grass”, an alfalfa isn’t a grass.

Even though I read about bermudagrass, having never lived where it is even available, much less about the only game in town, it didn’t occur to me until it was pointed out.

I envy you people with easy access to good hay. I pay an arm and a leg for northern or western hay. In my area, Coastal Bermuda is the only locally grown hay, and I have never seen it mixed with any other grass. The vast majority of horse owners around here feed Coastal, and the predominant grass for pastures is Bahia. Both are pretty low in protein. Dr Tucker also comes from the land of Coastal, BTW.

[hank]

As an aside, I no longer reside in AZ, and I really LIKE the local grass hay, which has many different things baled in with the fescue. Horses seem to share my opinion.

Also, while I am enjoying this topic, I have no real opinion on grain free diets for horses. My experience is that some of them really don’t require grain to maintain condition, but I have not fed OTTBs in quite some time:D

[JB]

But again - what’s the definition of “grain”?

My TB doesn’t need any calories beyond grass during the grazing months. But she still needs nutrition, so gets a good v/m supplement with a cup or 2 of alfalfa pellets. But, she gets a ration balancer starting December or so, as hay starts kicking in full time, and by mid-Jan if things have been cold, her small bit of alf pellets gets bumped up to 1-2lb. Is the ration balancer “grain”?