A few years ago, I went to a high end auction (not intending to buy anything) and there was a lovely 4 year old WB mare that was about 15.3. I thought, WTH, maybe I’ll bid on her, I liked her look, her eye was kind, and she was the perfect size. Vet said there were no issues w/ her xrays. She was green, but rideable. Bidding started around $10k, and I was thinking I could maybe pick up for a reasonable price. I much prefer the smaller horse - under 16 hands. Well, she went for $39k - about 3 times what I could pay. It may be a niche market, but for a nice horse with 3 good gaits, it isn’t a cheap niche market.
I’m 5’1" so I’d happily buy a small horse. I still think a pony would be too small for me. I weigh 130 and I’m built like a grown-up, not a stick figure 12 year old.
The main reason I’d buy small is something a very good university farrier said to me long ago: “Buy the smallest, lightest horse you can for the job.” His point was that his ability to help horses largely involved trimming; adding wide, supportive webs on shoes could help. And that tool, or the same great trim job, would have a much greater effect on the smaller horse. He was a draft horse expert. His opinion was that we have bred horses to be much bigger and heavier than their basic architecture was built to support. So there is a point at which the amount of change you can make in a hoof stops influencing how the leg moves and bears the huge amount of weight involved. I think the same is true for ligaments: I’m not sure that the size of structures like the ligaments in the suspensory apparatus have scaled up proportionately with the increased size and weight of horses.
I extrapolate from this to think about the effects on joints in legs that have slight defects. The less weight passing over, say, imperfectly conditioned ligaments or joints that don’t articulate perfectly because of some twists and turns in the bones, the smaller those damaging effects.
And maybe it’s easier of a pipsqueak like me to sit smaller gaits. It shouldn’t be harder to collect them. IMO, a broke horse should respond to signals, not force. Then again, of course, that’s in an ideal world. The lighter he is for me, the stronger he has to be in order to give me so much change in his body without me doing much to help him manage his own biomechanics.
If you don’t have to have a jumper that will clear huge oxers or lope along on a 14’ stride, by all means buy the smaller horse and try to stack the odds in favor of having him stay sound for a long time.
After riding the larger WB, draft cross, OTTB types, I have come to appreciate shorter, more compact horses. My current gelding is a 14.1 QH/Belgian cross. He has nice movement and is easy to sit. He is smart, sensitive (in a good way), and a hard worker. I’m not tall, and I’m middle aged. For me, riding a 14.1hh equine has been a great fit. I know it’s not for everyone, but I encourage people to try smaller varieties, because they can be a lot of horse in a small package, and mine at least is a very easy keeper.
[QUOTE=mvp;8908767]
I’m 5’1" so I’d happily buy a small horse. I still think a pony would be too small for me. I weigh 130 and I’m built like a grown-up, not a stick figure 12 year old.
The main reason I’d buy small is something a very good university farrier said to me long ago: “Buy the smallest, lightest horse you can for the job.” His point was that his ability to help horses largely involved trimming; adding wide, supportive webs on shoes could help. And that tool, or the same great trim job, would have a much greater effect on the smaller horse. He was a draft horse expert. His opinion was that we have bred horses to be much bigger and heavier than their basic architecture was built to support. So there is a point at which the amount of change you can make in a hoof stops influencing how the leg moves and bears the huge amount of weight involved. I think the same is true for ligaments: I’m not sure that the size of structures like the ligaments in the suspensory apparatus have scaled up proportionately with the increased size and weight of horses.
I extrapolate from this to think about the effects on joints in legs that have slight defects. The less weight passing over, say, imperfectly conditioned ligaments or joints that don’t articulate perfectly because of some twists and turns in the bones, the smaller those damaging effects.
And maybe it’s easier of a pipsqueak like me to sit smaller gaits. It shouldn’t be harder to collect them. IMO, a broke horse should respond to signals, not force. Then again, of course, that’s in an ideal world. The lighter he is for me, the stronger he has to be in order to give me so much change in his body without me doing much to help him manage his own biomechanics.
If you don’t have to have a jumper that will clear huge oxers or lope along on a 14’ stride, by all means buy the smaller horse and try to stack the odds in favor of having him stay sound for a long time.[/QUOTE]
I think that’s an interesting perspective to note. One horse that comes to mind is a friend’s 17.1 or 17.2 Hanoverian, who is also VERY solid. Lovely lovely mover, and VERY athletic. Unfortunately, to his own detriment. He is simply too big and athletic. One strain of the DDFT led to a re-injury after a long careful rehab, and the re-injury never healed perfectly. He is still rehabbing now and will always have a question mark on his future, and he will likely never do more than be a pretty horse for his owner to ride around occasionally. Lucky fella has a WONDERFUL owner who will care for every horse she owns until their last day, with no penny spared to keep them happy. But the fact remains that he is just not meant to be sound.
I think that now there at least IS a market for under 16h horses. Back in the 90s when I was looking for a horse to play around with in dressage, it seemed like it was looked on as a mark of being “serious” about dressage if you had a huge WB. Even if it was poor quality and you couldn’t ride it!
I now see more AAs being willing to admit they want a more rideable horse and often a smaller horse. It helps to see that others have done well competitively at and above their level on horses like that.
I don’t think smaller horses sell equally well, but if it is 15.2 or above and either advanced-beginner friendly or very talented with a record, it will have a pretty substantial market. Being smaller, more difficult, or without a record would “shrink” the buyer pool.
I would disagree that talented GRPs, etc can command “big horse” prices - I could buy a quality FEI pony in Europe for about half what that pony would cost if he were a “big horse.” They are childrens mounts over there and all but the very, very top ponies are what warmblood people would consider cheap.
I would think that for the specific horse asked about, the detriment to the price would be 1. PRE and 2. mare before 3. Size. However, the size might be strike 3.
I love my little guys (my gelding is 9 and my baby horse is coming 2) and don’t think I’d ever have a big horse - unless of course it’s a seeing-eye schoolmaster. Wouldn’t turn one of those down 
[QUOTE=Nestor;8908812]
I think that’s an interesting perspective to note. One horse that comes to mind is a friend’s 17.1 or 17.2 Hanoverian, who is also VERY solid. Lovely lovely mover, and VERY athletic. Unfortunately, to his own detriment. He is simply too big and athletic. One strain of the DDFT led to a re-injury after a long careful rehab, and the re-injury never healed perfectly. He is still rehabbing now and will always have a question mark on his future, and he will likely never do more than be a pretty horse for his owner to ride around occasionally. Lucky fella has a WONDERFUL owner who will care for every horse she owns until their last day, with no penny spared to keep them happy. But the fact remains that he is just not meant to be sound.[/QUOTE]
And another thing! (Signal for: “This is where the rant/lecture/finger wagging starts”)
It’s hard and not common these days to do the long, slow, boring conditioning that builds density in bones, ligaments and their points of attachment. Long, slow trail rides, not work in small areas with relatively deep footing has left many horses’ repertoire. And variations in footing-- whether in being ridden or, even better, in many hours of turnout each day-- that’s leaving, too.
Overly-large horse plus overly-limited horse keeping amounts to burning the candle at both ends with respect to soft tissue injuries.
JMHO. Oh, but I have walked the walk. Thanks to a purist, old school competitive distance rider, I learned to start hand-walking horses in February on the snowy/icy roads (if need be) in NY State. For her, this was laying down the foundation you’d want to call up in April or May.
[QUOTE=mvp;8909190]
And another thing! (Signal for: “This is where the rant/lecture/finger wagging starts”)
It’s hard and not common these days to do the long, slow, boring conditioning that builds density in bones, ligaments and their points of attachment. Long, slow trail rides, not work in small areas with relatively deep footing has left many horses’ repertoire. And variations in footing-- whether in being ridden or, even better, in many hours of turnout each day-- that’s leaving, too.
Overly-large horse plus overly-limited horse keeping amounts to burning the candle at both ends with respect to soft tissue injuries.
JMHO. Oh, but I have walked the walk. Thanks to a purist, old school competitive distance rider, I learned to start hand-walking horses in February on the snowy/icy roads (if need be) in NY State. For her, this was laying down the foundation you’d want to call up in April or May.[/QUOTE]
See my post in the thread about young horses. 
I agree with you, and am sad it is not taught as often anymore, as I believe it simply doesn’t occur to many people who weren’t around long enough to be taught it. Horses are out on trail rides within their first 5 rides at my trainer’s, and I believe it is part of why he has never had a soft tissue injury under saddle on any horse. Turnout, yes. Under saddle? No.
My Andalusian X mare is 15.3 is the perfect size for me. When I was looking at horses I wanted something from 15h-16h. I’m just a smidge under 5’4" and have no desire to ride a really tall horse.
While a lot of PREs are on the shorter side, Festivo MR is 17.1h!
There is a market, but it’s small. I have three horses: 15H WB cross, 15H GRP, 15.2H AQHA.
When I have shopped, it has been very difficult to find the small horses. But IMO it’s also difficult to sell them.
I’m 5’2" and weigh 115 lbs, so let’s face it, I’m tiny. I think 16H is the magic number for most adults of normal size. And your average dressage barn is still full of huge horses.
There’s two things separate things actually in this thread. The suitability of horses under 16 hands for performance, and then Iberian breeds versus warmbloods.
The Iberian horses (Andalusians and Lusitanos) are incredibly good at collecting, light on their feet, and can develop a pretty impressive trot with schooling (though some have bigger gaits naturally — it varies a bit). They can be hot, but generally not spooky, and they tend to be under 16 hands, but Lusitanos in particular are quite substantial horses that can look just fine with an adult rider.
IMO, they can be very appropriate dressage horses for competent amateurs, but they don’t look like warmbloods, they don’t move like warmbloods, and they need a somewhat different training progression to accomodate their strengths and weaknesses compared to warmbloods. A warmblood with a huge natural gait can retain decent movement even if he is being schooled and ridden incorrectly.
The Iberian versus Warmblood question is different though from the small horse/big horse question, if small horse is taken to include quarter horses, ponies, smaller OTTB, and big horses means high quality warmbloods. None of those other breeds is as good a bet for dressage as our imaginary ideal high quality warmblood, though certain individuals of those other breeds might be better than certain warmbloods.
But I’d say a very good Iberian horse is as good as a very good warmblood, but just in a different way, and probably most evidently at higher levels where the Iberian horse can rock the collected movements.
There are also high quality smaller warmbloods. In my experience they are not too easy to find, but price is fairly equivalent to a larger warmblood for similar quality.
[QUOTE=out west;8909839]
There are also high quality smaller warmbloods. In my experience they are not too easy to find, but price is fairly equivalent to a larger warmblood for similar quality.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think it’s interesting when people assume anything under 16.0 has got to be something other than a Warmblood.
In our barn group with my trainer, we currently have a Zweibrucker, a KWPN and a Trakehner, all well under 16.0. They were not cheap to purchase and none could be bought cheaply now, if they were for sale.
All are uphill with typical WB gaits and conformation, and all three are competitive with titles at State and also USDF/EF Regionals.
Yes it’s probably easier to look for a non-WB if 16.0 is the buyer’s height limit, but the smaller WBs are out there, too.
[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8908876]
I would think that for the specific horse asked about, the detriment to the price would be 1. PRE and 2. mare before 3. Size. However, the size might be strike 3. [/QUOTE]
I would agree.
I really don’t know what prices of smaller horses go for because I’ve never looked for one. My personal feeling is that a horse should be suitable size-wise to the rider because I believe dressage is an aesthetic sport. Of course, all the larger riders on the smaller horses think they look fine, so that’s all the counts.
I have an AA friend that went shopping in Europe twice for smaller high quality FEI prospects. She told me that her trainer’s contacts over there said that it is hard to find smaller fancy horses that have been started professionally because trainers don’t want to bother with them.
I can think of many different breeds that are under 16 hands and NOT Iberian. Including some of the Warmbloods. And GRPs (Warmblood/pony cross usually). My small mare is a Friesian/WB cross. I see Welsh Cobs, Haflingers, Iberians, Warmbloods, GRPs, Arabian crosses, Morgans at our area shows, and all are under 16 hands. Some are at the FEI levels, a few are even doing CDIs. So I don’t think we are talking “big Warmblood” vs “small Iberian” in this thread.
And when it comes to price, the Iberians tend to be as much or even more then a WB, even lacking the movement (something I don’t quite understand to be honest).
So I don’t quite understand your comment, I guess? There are many small horses with WB movement, and there are plenty of big horses (including Warmbloods!) who don’t have quality WB movement too.
you do have to wonder, however, as the "age " of dressage matures in this country along with it riders , that older adults might favor a smaller ride.
If I get a horse again, I will be in my retirement years. My last horse was an AQHA ranch type. His 15.1 hands was fine for me. I was slightly too tall for him from the hips up, but he filled my leg
His heart was bigger.
Love him for life.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8910406]
So I don’t think we are talking “big Warmblood” vs “small Iberian” in this thread.
And when it comes to price, the Iberians tend to be as much or even more then a WB, even lacking the movement (something I don’t quite understand to be honest).
So I don’t quite understand your comment, I guess? There are many small horses with WB movement, and there are plenty of big horses (including Warmbloods!) who don’t have quality WB movement too.[/QUOTE]
I think the focus on Iberian breeds has to do with the fact that the OP is considering buying one. So question on the “after market” in her case has to do specifically with a PRE that is under 16 hands.
I can only speak from the perspective of a buyer, not a seller, as I don’t breed nor do I sell horses.
I love the small horses. Each of my three are smaller than 15.3 - TB is 15.1 and fine boned, mustang is also 15.1 but much bigger in bone, and pony is 14.2.
As a buyer, I prefer smaller horses these days. My TB was my first small sport horse (stepping down from 16.3, then 16.2), and he was like a sports car. I actually often got comments that people thought he was bigger because he has a big stride and is nice and forward.
I have other friends who also like smaller horses, although those aren’t people who show.
No comment on the baroque breeds versus WBs - I think if you’re not in it for resale then you should buy what appeals to you.
Yes, there is definitely a market for this type of horse. To be honest, the price may be 25% less than an 16.2 warmblood with a fancy pedigree and similar scores. But it sounds like you have a sale-able horse that is worth tens of thousands under saddle and could be several tens of thousands at 3rd level +.
When I was looking I could not find a nice small 15.2/15.2 gelding. I was open to many breeds and coat colors.
On some sale sits you can put in the size my max would be 15.3/16 and I’d come up with very horses. It was so frustrating.
I wanted a smaller horse due to my size 5’2 and as I’m getting older I wanted a smaller horse so it was easier for me to brush, saddle, etc. there was no way I wanted a 16 hand no matter how nice it was.
Luckily, I found a 15.2 mare. Maureen, I would have preferred a gelding but I was Willing to give that up for the perfect sized horse for me.
She was pricey for her level of trading. Though, her breeding is very good.
