THE suspension list

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RzB:
I’m not for raising the drug fee. If people want to drug their horses to win, who cares. Just ride better and beat them with your clean horse. Horse shows are expensive enough, why raise a fee and make them even more expensive?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RzB- You HAVE to be joking, right? Why should the rest of us spend so much time, money and energy to show only to have horses that are drugged compete side by side with our clean horse. That is just ridiculous. Sure you can beat them, but why should we even have to compete against such folks?

“Some people need to buy the winners, others make them.”

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GotSpots:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why would you inject a sound and healthy horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Legend (IV). Adequan (IM). Both given to sound, healthy horses in the hopes that the horses continue to be that way and have long careers. I put younger horses on both when I can (and I’m not alone), particularly if they are going to be jumping, have less than ideal conformation, or if the ground may be a touch hard, as a preventative. But under FEI rules, I cannot give that injection on grounds. If the horse lives on grounds, that means calling a vet to give those shots, even though I am competent to do so myself and would otherwise. Just two examples of drugs which are regularly used but which do not indicate unsoundness or lack of health.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point, but wonder why both drugs would have to be administered on the show grounds. It isn’t like either of them is going to lose efficacy over a couple of days. So the case of those particular two (and Adequan is IM, anyway), the argument doesn’t hold.

Having the designated horse show vet be the only person allowed to give injections is just not feasable. At the big shows, the numbers of horses are way too high. This vet can hardly keep up with illness/lameness/pre-purchase stuff let alone giving shots of Banamine. And you only have a certain window for NSAIDS–if the vet gets tied up and arrives hours late for your horse’s NSAID injection, that too could result in a penalty. Imagine at WEF w/ 3,000 +/- horses, how could 1 vet handle that?

I do think making vets sign in at horse shows and be USAE members is a good idea. This way they have access to the D&M department and can have no excuses for incorrect info when prescribing meds. I don’t think a $75 membership is too much to ask your vet for.

A drug test is basically an audit to see who is playing by the rules and who is not. If your accountant or financial advisor or investment company got audited and was found to have broken rules and cheated, would you keep them around?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:

Originally posted by Jake’s Dad:
you know this story sounds like other story i use to hear in basic training…the horse went down in the aisle…the vet was called he gave him a shot and brought him back to life…he was in a class in the afternoon and got a ribbon.i dident see it …but i was told it happened at 4 am …hmmmmm question how come we never heard anything about this ??? for some reason the part i dont belive is …he went in a class and won a ribbon…wait …the bnt or the horse.

Well, once the horse was fine it was fine. You know?

This happens a bit with the magnesium and to a lesser degree the calcium. Most of the time the vets don’t need to administrate any drugs to bring them back. Who knows if that part is true or not.

Lots of the horses are fine to show an hour after it happens.


Limo Wrek. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reply made me nauseous. I’m hoping you’re not serious.

I think its interesting that some of the people you’d expect to be all over this thread are conspicuous by their absence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
So tryptothane is legal, and Valarium root isn’t?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theoretically, giving tryptophan for purposes of altering mental status is against the rules.
In reality, it is an amino acid which is naturally occurring, so there is no way to test for it.
Same holds for Mg and Ca.

Valerian root is not a normal constituent of equine serum, and can be tested for.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can’t remember for sure, but I thought that horses can’t store tryptophan, and so they can become deficient. Something to do with a deficiency in… I think niacin? If deficient in niacin, tryptophan that’s introduced through feeds (almost all commercial feeds and vitamin supplements contain tryptophan) can’t be utilized and your horses seratonin levels will be low, leading to an anxious pony. And a horse can also be deficient in magnesium, leading to sore, tight muscles. So then are you altering their behaviour or correcting a nutritional deficiency that results in a more mentally stable and less muscle sore horse because its body is functioning and fed correctly?

I also remember reading a study that found that excess tryptophan caused hyperactivity, so if you try to use it as a calmer and it makes your horse hot, he was never deficient. If it relaxes him, he was.

I don’t know, it’s a fine line but I know horses have a need for tryptophan and magnesium in their diets, but you’ll never meet a horse who’s deficient in Reserpine.

www.coolmeadows.net

I don’t agree with some sort of annual drug fee – It penalizes the rider who only shows a few times per year – These people have less incentive to drug (not aiming for zones, HOTY, eq finals, …) – These people also are most likely on tighter budgets than those who show several horses almost weekly –

I think the per show fee we pay now is more fair – I also think the fines should cover additional testing of horses ridden/trained by those who have been set down –

I’m horrified by the Mg-Ca story – It also concerns me because my mare is on a cushing’s supplement that includes Mg – Is it the Ca or the Mg or the combination of the 2 that could cause such a reaction? –

Radio Talk, that’s an interesting observation, and a very timely one. Here’s an article from yesterday’s Salon that deals with exactly that issue. It’s relatively short, so I’ll copy it here, since I can never tell if the links work as I have a Premium subscription and can get to everything.

“The Cheating Culture”
David Callahan explains why Americans lie more now than they did in the '50s, '60s or '70s.


By Heather Havrilesky

Dec. 22, 2003 | Does the endless list of deceptions and scandals that have emerged over the last year signal a shift in our standards and ethics as a culture? David Callahan, author of “The Cheating Culture: Why More Americans Are Doing Wrong to Get Ahead” (Harcourt, January 2004), talked with us about what happens when the “Me” generation decides “Greed is good.”

Do you think that people are worse than they have ever been historically? Surely there have been other periods in history when lying and cheating were just as rampant.

My feeling is that ways of cheating to get ahead tend to come and go. We have these periods in American history where people are more focused on money and success, and there’s more license to do whatever it takes to achieve those things. I think that the late 1800s and the robber-baron era was one of those periods, and the 1920s was one of those periods, and I think the '80s and '90s will be remembered as one of those periods. And then there are other periods when we’re a little more serious or sober, like the Depression, World War II, when people really pulled together more. And in the '50s and '60s there was a lot of serious concern about things like the Cold War and the Civil Rights Movement, and it just wasn’t a very materialistic, go-go period.

In general, I think America tends to be a country where the ends of wealth are so extolled and valued that basically any means necessary to achieve those ends are considered OK. That national characteristic tends to be more or less intense depending on broader political, economic, and cultural forces at work.

Do you think there’s an equal drive to get ahead among the different economic classes?

Yeah, I think that one of the signature aspects of America compared to other industrialized democracies is that it’s a country where the promise of affluence is one that is dangled before everybody. This is a nation where everybody is supposed to be able to achieve the American dream. So if you’re in the upper classes, you feel like you have the opportunity to become extremely rich. If you’re poor, the idea is that you should be able to rise into the middle class. If you’re middle-class, maybe you can rise into the ranks of the affluent. But the problem is, of course, that even as everybody is taught from a young age that they can all achieve affluence and economic security, in fact, not everybody can, because we have structural economic conditions where basically the top 20 percent are doing very well, and most other people are just sort of making ends meet or barely keeping their heads above water.

So not everybody can go to college and not everybody can get a law degree or a medical degree, and there are just a lot of people who are basically locked out of the stream of affluence. I think that the gap between expectations and realities is enough to make people feel as though the social contract that’s been promised to them hasn’t delivered, which can make them feel that it’s OK to do whatever it takes to level the playing field, and get the things that have been denied to them. And that’s not a new characteristic in the United States – sociologists have commented about that same phenomenon 60 or 70 years ago.

But does this phenomenon have an economic cause, or is it more of a sociocultural issue? Obviously they’re related, but you’d think that the societal norm would play a big part in this.

I make a four-fold argument in my book about why there’s a lot of cheating, seemingly more cheating in the last 25 years than in the '40s, '50s and '60s. The argument is that, one, the last quarter-century has seen an intensification of bottom-line pressures. So there’s more of a focus on profits in business but also in law and medicine and even nonprofit organizations are more focused on the bottom line, and people are under more pressure to produce. For example, 30 years ago, lawyers didn’t turn in billable hours, and to the extent that they did, they weren’t expected to work nearly the kinds of hours that they’re expected to work now. Now, young lawyers at law firms have to keep track of everything they do during the day, all of their billable hours, and they’re accountable to the partners as to how many hours they’re billing, their billing expectations are up to 2,200 or 2,400 hours a year, and if they can’t meet their quota, then they are the first to be fired during a downturn, or they’re less likely to make partner, or they don’t get a bonus …

Well, it makes sense that economic situations would create economic causes for cheating. But in other situations where cheating and lying are removed for an economic outcome, for example, when people have a lot of money and they steal for fun, or when people cheat each other or tell lies simply because they think they can get away with it – such cases would seem harder to understand.

My book is really more about cheating to get ahead. However, I do think that values come into play. There have been economic changes, there’s been government deregulation – the watchdogs have been anesthetized, whether it’s the IRS or the SEC or the local Department of Housing, they’re just less on the case – but I also look at the value changes in American society over the last 25 years, that the society has become more materialistic, more individualistic, and more socially Darwinistic. The individualism of the '60s sort of teamed up with the materialism of the '80s, and many of the more cooperative values of the '60s that went with the individualism initially have sort of fallen away in our society.

So people are more focused on their own personal advancement instead of being focused on the common good.

Right. It’s sort of like the “Me” generation meets “Greed is good.” We get all these messages that you should look out for yourself, that government can’t solve collective problems. People’s loss of faith in collectivism and government is really an important part of the story here, because government has always been the outlet for collective aspirations or for collective problem-solving, and if most people don’t believe in government and they’re told again and again by top politicians that government is the problem, not the solution, then basically you’re on your own. This is an economic and political climate where you’re on your own, and you have license to do what it takes to make it on your own.

Still, in scapegoating the government, as politicians so often do, what’s lost is a message of personal responsibility that has an emphasis on honor – “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.”

Some politicians have been saying the government should do more for you. Many other politicians have been saying the government does too much, the government should get out of the way, everybody should take responsibility for themselves. If you look at polling on this subject, the number of Americans who believe that everyone is responsible for their own success – you’re sort of individually the master of your own destiny – has increased in the '80s and '90s.

That sense, though, could be focused in the direction of honor and personal responsibility. It could be the seed of something positive.

If people could learn to cooperate with others to do that. You know, the other part of the cultural picture here is that we tend to worship the strong. By strong I mean the rich and famous. Our culture is filled, essentially, with these triumphant individuals who have seemingly made their way by themselves. And because we admire the strong and wealthy so much, we tend to be very forgiving of their weaknesses. So that sort of dovetails into this historical tendency in the United States to kind of worship the ends and ignore the means that were achieved to get those ends.

Our culture – Hollywood, in particular – also glorifies the renegade who finds some way, whatever means necessary, heedless of laws or moral codes, to get results and make things happen.

Yeah, in every industry. The other part of the picture is that there are a lot of double standards when it comes to personal responsibility and wrongdoing and culpability. Basically over the last 20 years, we’ve thrown the book at the poor. We have three strikes you’re out, we have mandatory minimum sentences for drugs, we have quality of life policing that has turned poor neighborhoods into virtual police states, and yet the middle class and the upper middle class is being coddled more than ever, in terms of their wrongdoing is pretty much accepted and there’s not really a Draconian crackdown on middle-class crimes. A lot of these corporate criminals have gotten off the hook in the wake of the scandals.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>(From Darker Horse)
It (dex) is a steroid. The rule applies to NSAIDS. Why do you think the drug is legal?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had a brain bobble and forgot that the stacking rule applied to NSAID’s only and not all AID’s. My mistake.

With respect to the legality of dex, I recalled that it was legal below some threshold and then referred to your post where you cited a limit of 5 cc/day. Based on the USEF publication whose title starts with “Practical Advice…” on this web page it’s a bit more complex than that–they refer to mg per 100 lbs of body mass and give amounts for 12 hours before, IV 6 hours before, and oral 6 hours before.

Yeah, ghazzu, it was rude. The reference to the “horse of the century” was very uncalled for.

For Pete’s sake, guys, move ON! NO ONE is going to a)change anybody’s mind or b)solve the problem HERE. Most posters are comparing apples to kumquats! Do what you think is best for you and YOUR horse, allow others the freedom to do the same, and let the chips fall where they may.

This thread has degraded to the same point as the “Arab Hunter” thread. Sheesh!

Laurie

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
Repeat…Jane Clark and Robert Dover???

OMG…and very little shocks me…but this does.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Repeat… pentoxyfilene. Repeat… $500 fine and censure. No suspension.

Put it in perspective. Pentox is just glorified time released isox and is not one bit more performance enhancing than isox (legal to show on). In fact, you can show on pentox as long as you withdraw 24 hours before showing and file a D&M report. And since you give it for 6 weeks, and it lasts six MONTHS in the system, I think it is safe to say that it has its full effect for the 24 hours you withdraw it, and the USEF knows this.

I still haven’t figured out how the hell you get “caught” for pentox, but I figure you must a) think it is legal like isox and not file a D&M report b) you don’t care because you want that extra isox/pentox “edge” or c) there are issues with testing and time release drugs.

With a & b, $500 is a good price for stupidity. If c is the case, presumably the USEF will take this into consideration, or better yet, give pentox the same legal status as isox.

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

It seems pretty far fetched that feed is continuously mixd up in barns of this calibre. I sure know that when I was grooming, I or any of my colleagues would have been fired if the mistake happened more than <<once>>.

It’s alot more likely that these folks know EXACTLY what they are doing.

As far as sabotaging another barns horses, the only problem with that is that the tests are so random you couldn’t count on it working. Seems that it wouldn’t be a very efficient way of doing evil deeds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lms:
I also have heard that more suspensions should be coming out around the first of the year.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You heard right Happy New Year

I would ask for my trainer’s version of the story, look at the length of suspension, and go from there.

The hard thing is finding out for sure whether or not a new trainer overmedicates before firing the old trainer…

DH - sounds like you are being a little facetious - however, those words “ROM” and “Champion” and “Supreme Champion” is the Quarter Horse world are worth a LOT of additional dollars in terms of a horse’s value…

It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!

An after thought to the report card:

pbmomh-prepared by method of medicating horse-now this would be a catch all so we wouldn’t necessarily have to declare EACH illegal substance used.

HOWEVER HUGE bonus points for the ever clever:

pbmomr-prepared by method of medicating RIDER…methinks the local beverage depots would likely be coerced into sponsoring the adult classes with incentive as such.

THEN we could offer sponsorships—you know, have logos of the companies on the numbers offering such medications…so next on course would be

172altd@pbmomrJOSE or CORONA-either specifically written out or just a small bottle in the bottom right hand corner of the number.

OR the riders could more subtley braid in said sponsor’s colors and choose a fashionably appropriate hunt coat and ratcatcher in such colors.

I think I should be a show manager.

"I don’t mind where people make ‘whoopie’, so long as they don’t do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

Now let me ask a really silly question. If people are giving illegal drugs to their horses, why would having a vet administer IV injections keep any of them from continuing their illegal practice when no one is looking.
The only answer I can think of that might keep this illegal drugging in check would be a combination of testing champion and reserve champion of divisions and still do the random testing.
By just doing the champion and reserve you could cut down on massive testing to only 2 per division plus leave the threat of random testing out there for the entire population showing would have the same effect as it has today.

One other thought, I sure want my vet to know what drugs are legal to use according to the rules.

Help! I just found my trainer’s name on the list! I love this person. They have done so much for my skill level and confidence. I had no idea they weren’t in good standing. What does this mean? What do I do!

I’m down with OPH!

Well said clearound…I too am getting a little SICK of the generalizations occuring here!!!

However, statements like the one made by “Caffeinated” do little more than expose the speaker’s ignorance.