THE suspension list

Actually, budman, yours is not the situation I was alluding to - it’s the ones who think the trainer is better suited to make serious medical decisions for the horse.

My vet will often do what yours does, but he doesn’t seem comfortable with trainers medicating the horse unnecessarily. Especially when the trainer only meets us at shows (in which case they don’t know the horse well enough to give it most meds). If the horse lived with the trainer, I would expect that he and the trainer would discuss and agree on all meds and treatments.

Trainers in this country need to get “over themselves” when a client asks for details on billing. If the trainer does administer an illegal substance and the horse’s show career or the owner/rider are affected and they really did know nothing about it - well then they should SUE the trainer. If only a few people would have the backbone to do this it would send a shock wave through the sport.

Also those East German swimmers are now women in their 50’s now and most are horribly ill and suffering from what they were given. Many were never told they were steroids - just vitamins.

The rules are clear on the equestrian competition and what you can and cannot use. If you find your trainer knows right down to the day how long various drugs will last in a horse’s system - run the OTHER WAY.

I can’t wait to see this “long list” spoken about on this thread - I hope it does shake up the “back of the barn” a bit. And the Veterinarians that are handing over scripts or a huge volume of medications to the BNT’s without more oversight - should consider they are also part of the problem.

Well, I have to say, would they please come and do something about all the doping in dressage now!!! Dressage trainers and riders never seem to get caught. I haven’t been drug tested in 8 yrs! Nor seen anyone from USAE drug testing at any large shows I’ve been to in that time! If they would test, a lot more dressage trainers would be suspended. Most dressage people seem to go for steriods, it is sad because in the area I’m at everyone knows whose horses are drugged and with what (and its quite a few) but they never get tested!

Arnika, I think whether any client chooses to leave a trainer or not depends on the situation and their relationship with that trainer. A client with little to no knowledge of the industry probably would not leave, because they would accept any information given to them by their trainer, whether it is an excuse or lie or the honest truth. Some people new to the business don’t even know about suspensions, and you see people on these boards even that had no clue their trainer was suspended.
People with more knowledge would look at the situation, decide whether or not to believe their trainer’s side of the story, and weigh their options regarding other trainers. I don’t think it’s as black and white as you want to make it, and we don’t know the situations behind any of these suspensions, or even have confirmation of most of the rumors. Frankly, before I made a statement on any of the particular rumors, I’d have to wait and see what, precisely, these trainers were suspended for, in official notification. I know a lot of people on these boards don’t make a distinction, but for me, there’s a huge difference between an NSAID and a traquilizer; they can’t all just be lumped under ‘drugging’.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Molly99: Ah, I see. Thanks for the info.

http://www.medicinenet.com/pentoxifylline/article.htm

A good therapeutic with “helpful” side effects.

FEI has a fairly strict drug policy for horses competing in CDI. The side effects of the drug (and the ones closely related to it) eliminates it from show use.

_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don’t understand this part of your post. Sharps boxes are usually placed every three aisles or so. They’re in the barn area, and the point is to make them convenient to prevent dangerous disposal of medical waste. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Anther point is to protect the show from being charged with violating the rules about “medical waste.”

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arnika:
For LEPEnterprises;

Stewart, Donald JR.
Ocala, FL.

Terry<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For someone like this – and the others still to come – did a large portion of their clients and horses get suspended as well or did they “take one for the team”, so to speak?

Also, any word yet on how these will all affect HOTY stuff?

For one of the November suspensions, I am 99% sure it is for non-payment of fees to USAEq. Nothing to do with drugs.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Yes, but that big old “APPROVED BY THE FEI” label on the bottle (not to mention the widespread use by their brethren in good old “zero tolerance” Europe) certainly counted for as extenuating circumstances. And truth to tell when you have to return a $75K purse, I don’t think you got away with it entirely…

Also, they did not say they were led to believe it didn’t test. They said they used an herbal calmative agent that was in widespread use in Europe. They said they had the substance tested in this country to ensure it did not contain prohibited substances. They maintained that they were not giving an illegal substance, and as far as I know, to this day there is no illegal substance in that stuff. Now it does tend to metabolize as an illegal substance, hence the problem. But giving substances to calm horses down? If they aren’t illegal, it becaomes very hard to find the grey line. B-1, magnesium, low carb feed, cutting feed in general are all variations on that theme. And all are done with the intent to alter performance.

But (in my opinion) to compare the circumstances of that case with what today’s batch of trainers have done is not entirely fair. From everything I have learned, these guys gave an illegal substance that they knew would alter the performance, and they (incorrectly) believed would not show up in the tests. Now maybe a few were hoodwinked by the vet in question, but the vast majority knew exactly what they were doing.

And I would have to say the system worked. At least from a comparative standpoint, the penalties have been fair when compared to this other case.

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[This message was edited by DMK on Jan. 02, 2004 at 08:25 AM.]

I have heard of strange things like that happening, too, but ultimately, we all have to be responsible for our own animals. Just like Ulla Salzgeber in dressage, and McLain Ward with the sharp plastic in the horses’ boots, they both claimed they didn’t know who did it or it wasn’t them personally, but both ultimately had to take responsibility anyway. Ulla has stepped down as World Cup champ and McLain was either fined or suspended or both, I can’t remember exactly.

“A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!” Shakespeare’s Richard III

Chandra, I am in awe of you and your family’s horses and I respect you and your opinion.

I posted about 30 pages ago that speculation and innuendo are out of place and it’s wrong to jump on any bandwagon to condemn anybody based on rumor…I am with you more then you may know.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
A certain BNT’s staff has been known to stuff other barn’s Sharps Containers with their overflowing needs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh heck, that’s an old trick. Always use the neighbors Sharps Bin (or garbage can back in the “old days”). One trainer friend found an entire horse show using the Sharps bin at the end of his aisle each day and it would be overflowing. Funny prank.

Talking with your money = excellent idea. But that’s assuming we have the strength of our convictions.

I walked when a popular trainer gave my horse dex (it was part the regular prep of an amateur horse). Unfortunately, not everyone feels the drug is wrong because he still has a booming business!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEPEnterprises:
All I know is that if I (as a client) got suspended because my trainer was drugging my horse, I would flip out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clients don’t get suspended for drug tests. The trainer (ie. the person who signed in that space on the entry blank) is responsible for the horse. If you were suspended for the trainer drugging your horse, that would mean you signed the entries but allowed the trainer to do the medications. That is not a good idea

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

I love this proposal! Weatherford, you’re a genius!!!

With regards to the art of riding hunters, do you not think of dressage as art? Though I don’t ride anything but the hunters, I highly regard the dressage riders as artists (I’m thinking of the upper levels and European riders). They seem to do fine with this system, weeding out the dull and embracing the brilliant.

Is there a way to get this proposal to the convention next week?!?!?

OMGiH, Silk, “off like a prom dress”

Leader of the petition to call “trolls” “garage gnomes”

How many “C” shows have we seen the testers there. Not as often as the bigger “A” or "AAA’ shows. If I was putting out the drug money to the AHSA they should come to any rated shows.

This has developed into a very interesting conversation, and one that I think points out something that is a reality we don’t like to acknowledge in the horse world. That is:

There is a WORLD of difference between the (in total proportion of horse owners of all disciplines) VERY FEW people who campaign (by which I mean regularly show to place for year end) at the top shows/circuits (be it WEF, or QH Congress) and the huge pool of people who compete less frequently or even not at all and who are “in” horses for their love of the animal.

And I think that gulf has some dangers to it. The specter of PETA has already been mentioned. It’s real. And if we think that removing BNTs due to suspensions or anything like that could “kill” the industry it ain’t nothing compared to what PETA can do. Just ask the people who used to make a living trapping Nutria in Louisiana how PETA’s destruction of the fur industry affected them – even the ones who are BACK to trapping because the Nutria are destroying all the other flora and fauna which their original trapping kept under managed control.

I don’t have the answers to “is it better to drug or LTD” because I don’t think EITHER is good. But then, I’m part of that other world, the one that shows because I love to show off my horse. And that’s it. Yes, even at my level there is one local trainer who I believe drugs animals – and if I EVER witness it myself I WILL raise a stink throughout the state (sadly right now I only have a few reports from owners). But see, that’s the difference.

I don’t agree with drugging animals to solve training issues. Bute for the older campaigner, yeah, I can see that. Even PERHAPS some tranqus for the scared horse off the farm the first time. But not drugged WHILE riding! The liability alone is scary…

There is one comment, and I can’t remember now after nine pages who said it, nor do I think it matters, but it struck me hard. It was: “This IS a service industry, and some people WILL do things they otherwise would not do, to keep their clients happy.”

THIS comment to me is the crux of the matter. NOT that the competitive A world is a service industry – that is totally correct. Not even that A owners may not be aware of or even ask what their horses get – although I have some serious disagreements with this (heck, I complained in print about Geoff Teal’s “no owners at vetting” rule so you all know where I stand). No, my HUGE issue is with the phrase “some people WILL do things they otherwise would not do…”

You know what? That’s not true. If you do it, then THAT says all one needs to know about your moral and ethical standards. Period. If you “otherwise wouldn’t do it” – DON’T do it! TELL you client if the horse needs more riding, or if it’s not a good match. Some will be upset, yes, but others will respect you for being honest and caring enough about them – AND THEIR HORSE! – to be honest.

No one is ever “forced” to do something unethical. All they need to do is be able to look themselves in the mirror and live with what they see. Clearly, these people can. That’s their business. But when they’re caught, they shouldn’t be shocked to find that other people ARE horrified, and don’t feel as casually as they do.

I know I’ll be very curious to see this list. And, I’m sure, very sad. But what I won’t be is eager to support those on it, or those who don’t take it seriously.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:
Some trainers become very defensive when even the most innocent of questions is asked about their horse’s care… and show bills are often not itemized. The fact is that you can never really be sure what’s being done to prepare your horse for the showring, for a lesson at home, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it may have something to do with the personality of the owner/client. I know my trainer knows that I am a pretty independent, hard-ass individual and would not hesitate to “move on” if things felt out of place. I have actually asked him outright about his "drug use"policy, and he answered me, but only after laughingly saying that I had more gumption than most of his clients to come right out and ask.

i believe in being blunt; I have made no bones about the fact that I would be off like a prom dress if he so much as attempted to pull anything silly.

He has as much to lose as I do in this relationship. There are a bazillion “good” trainers in my area (Zone 1) and while he is not a BNT, per say, he is very well respected. However, there are many well respected trainers, and each is pretty willing to “grab” another’s client at the drop of a hat.

So, my bills are itemized…and nothing is done without asking first. Its never like, “oh, he needed his mane pulled so we went ahaead and did it and charged you 20 bucks!”

Its more like, “he needs his mane pulled. Do you have time to do it, or do you want us to do it?”

Anyway. My horses would be on the next trailer outta there is ANYTHING was put into them without my knowledge AND approval!

However, there are a lot of onwers who do not like being that “involved” so I guess that’s their own issue to deal with!

>>It’s not bragging if you can back it up!<<