THE suspension list

[Magnolia]

Sandstone,
I don’t think that most of these horses are illegally drugged. I think most likely get supplements etc. etc.
I also don’t think most eventers are crazy riders, most saddlebred people sore their horses or that all quarter horses are pumped up with hormones. I think those are the bad apples of the sport.
Do I think the people that got caught are bad apples? Yup, unless they can prove otherwise. Do they cast a bad light on the sport? Yes, especially when people try to justify their actions.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[flshgordon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
_ INSTANT GRATIFICATION_

This is a social problem within the community of horse people that is what needs to be addressed. Why have we changed from people who were accustomed to the challenges of winning out and moving up to a community that is so static winning has become the reason for the competition and not the reward of the hard work and skill.

_ THE QUICK FIX_

As horse people we had a system where you did Maiden Classes and when you won your blue ribbon you moved up so you could lose again until you had three blue ribbons etc. Rejection, disappointment and hard work were the by-products of this sport that made the children strong and healthy and able to cope with the real world when they became the adults in charge.

Not having time, being too busy but wanting the rewards anyway have led us down this slippery slope because we’ve forgotten why we all do this.

OK! there have been some excellent ideas and many suggestions out here in 48 pages of horror that such is happening. Can we get past the excuses and alibis to the point where someone will actually propose a Rule Change and submit it to the Drugs and Medication Committee to see if it’s feasible.

Perhaps we all need more financial information about the costs and then decide if out moral principles are still as strong when it gets into OUR pocketbook. Don’t you think it’s time that we all started realize that the THEY is really US.

Battle Scarred Veteran<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird…can you please spell out for those dummies among us like myself what it takes to make a rule change proposal. I really have no idea, but it sounds like you’re suggesting it’s something pretty easy to do?

“Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one’s horse as he is leaping”

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucassb:

Sure, there are drugs to make a horse quieter… but I think a well schooled horse can beat a drugged one, most of the time. So I am not sure how much of an “advantage” the cheaters get, at the end of the day. (You just don’t get the same jump out of a horse that isn’t “all there” in my opinion.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the drugs are given (even within legal limits) to make the horse quieter, it’s cheating. Funny how popular dex is and a major side effect is quietness. IMHO, most of the drugs are given to make up for a lack of horsemanship - they don’t know how to keep the horse sound and comfortable without the aid of a needle. When the majority of the horses in the barn are receiving more than an occasional tab of bute and regular joint supplements, you have to wonder if what they are asking of the horse is fair to the horse.

[Ponyfreak007]

omg… i was looking through the list and I thought I saw my old crazy trainer. It said michael friedman and I like fell off my chair. But I then noticed he was in NJ, not in MD. Whoops, almost gave myself a heart attack! lol

~Chelsea

[Silver_Bells]

At my previous barn, we received an itemized bill monthly. However, medication was listed as medication ( no specifics ) and charged say… $350.00. Lessons were listed by date & time, very precise. Trainers can be vague when they want to be.
I questioned the trainer to be specific as to what medications my horse was on, and why. I also questioned the vet as well. I will say that, I think I know what my horse received and when. But then again, how can one be 100% sure.
I will also say, that those of us who compete, and hang around shows, always spectate. I have been at the sidelines with a group, where everyone notices dramatic changes in a horse’s performance from one round to the next. Or even one show to the next for that matter. Do the trainers of these horses think these inconsistencies go unnoticed? Everyone knows, everyone talks… including grooms, braiders, and owners. But all we do is talk… Are we just as guilty for tolerating this abuse and unsportsmanlike conduct in others?

[Heather]

Related to Court’s question . . . why are Ranier’s trainer (Robert Dover) and owner (Jane Clark) suspended, but not the person who was actually riding him in the competition?

[pwynnnorman]

You know what I find hillarious?

I got into a somewhat heated series of comments in another drug thread (the “…compiling the 8 p.m. medication list for 30 horses is a task in itself” thread) and it seems that few of the folks (who at least seem to be on the “other” side–which may be an unfair statement, but I don’t know because I can’t really understand “their” side) have come here…unless I’ve missed something. Have I? I’d like to hear how C. Boylen weighs in on this, for example.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

[This message was edited by pwynnnorman on Jan. 06, 2004 at 08:22 AM.]

[horselesswonder]

Paging USAEq: The suspense is clearly keeping many of us from being productive citizens. Could ya just issue a press release already?!?

[Ruby_G_Weber]

Could it be that this process remains in first gear while USEF gets all it’s legal ducks in a row?

[MsHunter]

Ok Silver bells, you stated you ask “why this and why that?” Are you really asking because you want to know the trainers answer or are you asking because you want to change the program?
I think asking to learn is a wonderful thing, but if it is to place judgement and your not in agreement than moving to another trainers barn that you find yourself more in agreement is, seems like a great answer! Yes you pay the $$ so you need to find a situation that is right for you! Not every situation is correct for each person. Some are goal oriented at any cost (as dicussed earlier) some are care oriented, some are completely budget oriented wanting the most service for the least $$ due to money constraints ( I can relate!)… Some are amenity driven. THe list goes on. Some want to control their horses program completely and those people do not need trainers, they need a boarding barn and a riding instructor.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[DarkerHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Well. BH1, you’ve been there, and I am sure you are right. However, the two barns where I spend a LOT of time use NOTHING - and they both start young horses - and yes they work them harder than people in the States (except Foxhunters) and the one barn competes internationally. I have never seen the devices and crap that I saw regularly while growing up (from tack poles to electric wires), nor are there any drugs except from the Vet directly. Mostly because MANY of the drugs can’t be had here - bute alone only comes in powder packets and is prohibitively expensive… When I mentioned giving a horse bute to see if a lameness was inflamation caused or something else, the trainer looked at me in askance!

There HAS been research - and there is ongoing research in Holland re jumpers - that says racehorses started at 2 are more sound in the long run than those who start later. (And, sorry, I can not remember where I read that!) The research in Holland is a controlled study of 200 young horses - two groups, similar breeding - one group started you on the walker learning to do its job - from cavalettis to jumps - the other left turned out til 3 before learning its job - then going slowly.

The reesults of the study are not in, but there should be some comments soon, as the first groups are, I think, showing as 5 yr olds now.

So, I guess I remain wondering WHY our horses are SO unsound - why do they NEED so much “stuff” - and is it perhaps too much of a “good” thing??

_ It’s OUT! _ Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping _ co-authored by MOI!!! _<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, the thing is, if people are medicating (be it legal or not) they aren’t going to let you know they are doing it. They aren’t going to leave the tack rails out for the public to see either. Or even good clients.

I am being completely honest on this message board. I do my own medication, my trainer doesn’t.

We don’t use tack rails or anything like that. I just really think that it is a bold statement to say that people you know NEVER do anything unless you are on the inside of their operations.

They could very well not. But Don’t be as sure as you are, you know?

Why D’ya Do It?

[poltroon]

I think something USA Eq could do to ensure that suspensions aren’t just a slap on the wrist would be to keep a web archive of the Notices of Penalty. Then you COULD search it and see who had been suspended, when, for what, with all the official comments.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oak:
That’s what I am saying that he is only suspended from managing shows. He is allowed on the grounds. So he still can be a Judge or Course Designer. It doesn’t seem right to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You can’t tell whether it is “right” without knowing the information presented to the heatring committee.

If his problem is “he can’t manage a checkbook”, the penalty seems appropriate.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Tackpud]

As a trainer who works with Junior riders, I don’t expect them to understand everything about what their horse gets. What I do is try to teach them what medications are available, what are legal and in what amounts, and how this may help a horse at the end of the show day. I also try to teach them to ride and become horsepeople - some I have great sucess with, others just want the ribbons.

Many of my horses are given to the school because of soundness issues. The first thing I do is evaluate whether they need time off or medications. I talk to my vet about this - not the trainer they came from. My kids have to ride these horses and I want to know what the soundness issues are before I take legal responsibility for putting a student on them.

I am very lucky that I don’t have owners breathing down my neck about the next show and what ribbons they have to have. I hope I am turning out riders who are knowledgeable about their horses and understand the correct use of legal medications. I’m also really lucky that I can take the next two months off from showing and actually teach!!!

[LucianCephus]

Some new vacation schedules have been posted to the List. My, my…6 months is enough to travel the world!

[jn1193]

At a recent HS in NoVa, management made an announcement asking “those in the barn using needles to please not throw them in the regular trash as the folks who collect the trash had gotten stuck several times.”

Having followed this thread for awhile, I gave the USAF a call re: their testing policy. The information is interesting. To wit: USAF budgets $2.2 million/year for testing. With this budget, they are able to test approximately 1 out of every 6 shows. That’s shows of all disciplines, not just H/J. It also means that the odds are NOT in favor of many people being caught - the math works in the favor of the cheaters. With the budget at $2.2 million, presuming it is covered by the $10 drug fee, means that 220,000 horses/entries are paying for the testing program. With 1-in-6 shows being tested, only 37,000 of these entries might get tested. Since less than 10% of horses at any one show might be tested (and the actual percentage is far less), then maybe 3,700 entries out of those 220,000 get tested. That’s sad - and makes the drug testing program very expensive for such a small sample. If my math holds, this makes the cost per horse to test around $600, not $350.

The USAF folks also commented on the mixed reaction they have gotten to requiring show barns to have designated containers for the disposal of “sharps.” Some apparently feel that having these containers implictly endorses the use of injectable drugs, while others think it is a practical and safer disposal alternative for all concerned. Whatever - it is still an acknowledgement that injectable drugs are being used at horseshows (and, yes - I DO know that some of these drugs are legal.)

The bottom line is that trainers have been using drugs for as long as there have been horseshows and owners who turn a blind eye to anything but the ribbons and glory. Someone earlier wondered if any of the clients of the trainers suspended would permanently move their horses to other trainers or whether they would only move during the suspension period.

My guess is the former. Much has been forgiven and overlooked in this business. Look at the people still buying horses from Barney Ward, knowing he was found guilty of killing more than one. Or, Paul Valliere training via headset from just off horse show grounds. It’s proof of what Ara Parsighian said: “Winning is everything, it’s the only thing.”

The bottom line is that nothing will change until testing is more widespread and that some testing is done at 5 out of 6 shows instead of 1-in-6.

[Black_Market_Radio]

Chanda, I understand what it is you are saying, it’s just a sad, sad thing.

re cars. Cars are inanimate objects. If I don’t put oil in my car and the engine freezes up, the only being it affects is me. It has no feelings and doesn’t suffer. And the person who talked about how a mechanic will tell you whats wrong with the car and whatnot is right on the money. I can expect mine to tell me what is wrong and an over-view of how it is to be fixed.

My beliefs are that people should know what their horses are getting, and educate themselves on the whats and whys of what their horses are recieving. If my vet tells me my horse has X, and needs Y to regulate it, then I research X and Y and ask if there are other options and whatnot.

I also think that big investors should be a little more educated about what their horses are getting because how does it look to have an animal that bears YOUR company name get set down because YOUR rider decided to drug it? Doesn’t make for good advertising! Maybe if these big investors that “don’t care” would pull horses away from these riders that are drugging their horses, then some changes would be made. But, unfortunatly, that is just wishful thinking and unethical people are going to keep on getting slaps on the wrist and keep going.

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!’
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!

[khobstetter]

ahahaha…didn’t know that…

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[Black_Market_Radio]

OTOH, LH, if there IS a 45 day window, what if RC had been given the wrong feed at night time at a time when he was not being shown? Also, Oh Star may not be given huge doses of the stuff, maybe just small “theraputic” amounts while he is recovering. Just another thought… Playing devil’s advocate!

Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
“caught in this particular net”

WAS there a “special” net cast? Or does this reflect a backlog? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think “this particualr net” refers to the fact that a particular drug has only recently had a test developed, and used.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain