But Riggs, someone DOES and not nec. LW. Remember, it was LH who witnessed this act, and I consider her a pretty darn reliable source! Scary that people will actually do this kind of thing to a horse.
I posted on another thread that I thought this may be an alter… Not sure. Thought that since that first post!
Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’
First of all let me say I wholeheartedly agree with everything Chanda and Laurie have said to date.
Next I would like to thank everyone else for today’s bit of entertainment.
Here’s what’s so funny. The arguements-pro and con-have not changed in thirty plus years. The punishments are/will have the same effect they did in yesteryear- that being little or none.
Of course horses will continue to go to the ring and clients will continue to be trained and catered to by “assistant trainers.”
Trainers will continue to search for the next “miracle” training aid, be it an herbal preparation, lunging ropes, a fancy bit, portable walkers, you get the picture.
I don’t know what the solution is, if there is one as this scenario is surely history repeating itself.
I do know however, that the poor damn horse always gets the short end of the stick.
Some reasons why people might drug at a C show.
Start with the assumption that someone showing at a C show is on a tighter budget than soemone showing at an A show. (not necccessarily valid, I know.)
More likely to have an older horse, maybe a former 3’6" horse now doing 3’, with some maintenance issues, thus more likely to need AIDs.
More likely to have bought a greener horse, rather than one that is fully “made” and thus more likely to be “looky”, or play in the turns, thus more likely to use tranquilzers.
More likely to have bought a horse with minor temperament issues, or minor soundness issues, as such horses are more affordable.
More likely to have an OTTB than a WB.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
[This message was edited by Janet on Dec. 29, 2003 at 01:30 PM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dab:
Does anyone know the approximate cost of each USEF blood test?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that depends on how many or what type of drugs the tests are screening for. Each test does not test for all drug forms; there is a specific list, and adding more drugs = higher costs. That is why there will always be people playing the odds trying to figure out what is being tested for and what is not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WHISKEY POPPA:
Maybe I have missed something, as I have not read all 55 pages.Could someone please explain to me why the Vets are not held accountable for any of this?? The trainers for sure need to be accountable,but what about the vets??Does anyone understand how much control they have on the horse show industry?? Buy the horse,don’t buy the horse??? Your horse needs time off, on and on.Don’t forget the old joke,what is the difference between God and a vet? God doesn’t think he is a vet!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The USAeq, Ahsa, Federation… Whatever it is called now (I will start a new thread and ask LOL) cannot suspend someone who is not a member of their membership. Well, I guess they could ban them from going onto the show grounds.
But a vet doesn’t sign the back of the entry blank agreeing to the AHSA rules and stuff. He may not be a member of AHSA. He may have not perscribed the drugs to be used in an illegial way. I’d say anyone would have a VERY hard time proving that.
Why D’ya Do It?
Gasp 
My trainers on there…uh-oh, shes got some 'splaining to do!!!
One mans wrong lead is anothers counter-canter
~Dani
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEPEnterprises:
For example, a horse in the pre-greens is usually allowed to have a few more manners incidents and still win if it is a good jumper and flashy mover with tons of potential. A horse in the pre-adult division, as a contrast, will win because it is a calm, steady and consistent horse. If its bucking in the corner, its not going to win.
That is totally appropriate. A horse in the pre-adults is probably being ridden by an intermediate beginner, who needs a SAFE horse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Many horses in the pre adults are green horses being ridden by AMATEURS who just happen to be too unwealthy to have the horse campaigned in the pregreens by a pro.
Those kind of things happen. He’ll survive. I imagine his students will show under a different barn name while still riding with him…but that is just a guess based on what I know other people with banned trainers do 
ummmm yeah. I totally need someone to do these grad school admissions essays for me 
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
I do, however, see a lot of cocaine use by grooms and others around the shows, so the explanation of accidental ingestion does make sense to me in most cases.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There’s plenty of coke circulating at horse shows - particularly by many trainers and riders.
I wasn’t using a feed screw up as an excuse for everyone. I’m just saying that I have seen it happen to someone and be a legit mistake - especially since the drug in question was something this particular horse would have NEVER gotten for any reason as it was for a horse who was just hanging out with a medical condition 
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
– John Keats
Uhm, but when the horse GM was schooling at PB when I was there in 2000, was considered to “not be on the showgrounds”, therefore, he was not eligible for illegal schooling (as per the then AHSA rules - it was a short metal pole - check the archives, there was a long thread about it at the time.)
So, what happens, are those rings and barns ON or OFF the showgrounds? If they are OFF, then where ARE people going to warm up? If they are ON, will there be extra stewards to keep an eye on them?
Sounds like an interesting idea, but seriously hard to enforce consistently… 
It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! 
Life isn’t fair, so why should horse showing be? 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giddy-up:
If Joe Schmo Idiot Rider buys a 6 figure horse yet still runs like mad to the first jump & misses in every class, making the horse quieter (either via drugs or lunging) isn’t going to help. Idiot Joe needs to learn to ride. I hear trainers saying all the time “gotta have a safe one for my adult” or “need one to pack an oldie around”. Yes, I don’t want to see people falling off & getting hurt at shows, but the riders need to realize that those things can happen & then decide if they want to continue riding. The trainer doesn’t need to be making their horses “quiet” enough to cart them around. needed to go in the show ring.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Giddy-up, I’m afraid that you may be missing the point of this argument. BNT’s aren’t drugging or longeing these horses so their clients won’t fall off. They are doing it to take away that little extra spunk that makes them swish their tails or kick out in the corners, etc. I AM NOT condoning this, I’m just saying that you may have misunderstood this discussion. Lots of trainers look for a quiet horse for an inexperienced or older rider. These riders probably don’t expect to win right away, and if they do they learn otherwise. We’re arguing about the fact that judges don’t allow horses to show some spirit and that SOME trainers will resort to illegal and unethical methods to make sure their horses aren’t “up” or feisty, with or without the owner’s or rider’s knowledge.
Also, I resent your implication that if someone wants a safe horse they should realize that the sport has risks and get out. If because of age or injury (in my case) someone wants to feel extremely confident that they won’t fall barring a bizarre accident, then that’s OKAY. I know I can fall at any time. I just ask my trainer to put me on a safe horse to LESSEN the likelihood.
Leader of the petition to call “trolls” “garage gnomes”
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Molly99:
It is WRONG for people to assume that all suspensions that occur at the same time are for the same reasons.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes. And so maybe we should all work to change the procedure so that the notice of penalty is archived on a web page - so that people can see the exact text of the hearing committee’s decision instead of working off hearsay.
It is silly to expect us all to dust off years’ worth of Equestrian and Horse Show to be able to look up the original Notice.
Oh - lets see Alex
What would be Dormosedan?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
I assumed we were grading on a curve, so that put average further back a bit… 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
DMK, you are the BEST!! Thanks for making me laugh right out loud.
(What was the book where everyone was a little bit above average?? Shoot - Lake Wobegone Days?)
Ms Hunter, I can assure you that I tell it like it is, except when it could be hurtful.
I have been riding and showing for over 30 years, and have always been hands on. I am a very demanding client. I want to know why my horse gets a certain medication, why my horse is not moving as good as he can, why do we use this blacksmith or vet etc…
I also think that we as customers, should be able to discuss anything we choose amongst each other. Whether we compare our bills, or prices paid for horses, it shouldn’t matter.
This is an expensive hobby, not to be taken for granted. Remember we as clients are the customer!
Personally, If my horse was drugged without my knowledge, and I was put in the position the owners involved in the current suspensions are in, I would litigate.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flshgordon:
I guess maybe I am the only one that doesn’t understand the politics involved in this testing, because I just DO NOT understand how it costs $350 to $600 PER HORSE to drug test a horse!!! Doesn’t anyone else find this to be an absurd figure? Draw blood/collect urine and then send it off to the lab–how does the bill get up to hundreds of dollars? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My mother works as a med-tech in a hospital and her whole job is to do blood tests of many different types. The blood tests they do at a hospital can cost quite a bit of money as well, for several reasons.
One is equipment. The analyzing equipment used for this sort of thing costs QUITE a huge amount of money. Think millions. Plus annual maintenance costs. Many machines have to be checked weekly to ensure they are calibrated correctly- in some cases requiring a technician visit that costs beacoup $$$
Additionally drug tests often are done via chemical reaction- the chemicals needed to produce reactions with whatever they’re looking for can also cost more than you’d expect.
And lastly not all things can be tested at once- sometimes several different tests need to be run to determine what’s present in the sample, so it may not be a matter of popping fluid in a machine and getting a simple readout a la CSI.
Of course, that may be vastly different from the type of testing done on equine samples, which I admit to not knowing much about
“It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity”
**
formerly known as grog
Flame suit on, but this thread keeps hitting on the periphery of MY favorite topic: the price of good horses. Many posters have mentioned that trainers are pushed into making expensive horses work, and sometimes, to do that, they resort to drugging.
Well, the trainers are part of the problem at several levels here. The drugging, as has been mentioned frequently, but also in the price of these expensive horses, to begin with.
I can quote chapter and verse of the horses who are priced by the seller at $30,000, while the buyer pays $60,000. Or the one priced at $75,000 which, after all commissions, costs the buyer $125,000, etc. etc.
Perhaps, just perhaps, if the buyer thinks they got the horse for a good price, they might be more willing to allow the trainer some time to work out some glitches. But, the pressure is on the trainer to create an instant winner when the buyer pays the TOP of his/her price range, if not higher.
When I bought horses through a BNT, it was funny how EVERY horse they showed me was priced exactly at the top of my budget. Even sadder was how long it took me to catch on. So I can see how other buyers can be taken in, just as I was…
OK. So the Reserpine was meant for Oh Star who was on layup. I have no idea if it is given daily, but if it has a 45 day testing window, I am doubting that, since it seems to be long acting.
But, lets forget about Oh Star for a minute and focus on the horse who got the drug by mistake. Seems to me that it would have been acting differently than Todd would expect. It would have been acting quiet and like it was not feeling well.
WHY would he show such a horse? If the horse was tranq’ed by mistake, it just would not be acting like it should. I would think that a horseman would notice this and take it back to the barn for a thorough going over.
I am not at Todd’s level, but I know how the horses under my care should be acting. If one is much more lethargic than normal, I would taike its temp and try to find out WHY the horse was not acting right.
Has this aspect of his defense been addressed?
Portia
“We learn from history that we do not learn from history.” ~ George Bernard Shaw
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