The vaquero tradition

[re-runs]

Pocket Pony,

It IS possible to feel the horses hind feet, in your hand, under your seat, throughout your body, IF your awareness level is up to it. it is a matter of training yourself to ride like “your horses body is your body”. When Ray Hunt taught this he talked about how the horses feet were his feet.

I hope I don`t botch this up too bad…
I attended a seminar with Dr. Deb as lecturer and she was explaining how a famous doctor friend of hers told her that people who had lost their limbs; had them amputated or who were paraplegic, could still feel where their limbs were long after they were gone and still had the desire to move those limbs. Well, it is the same with the horses and riding… if a person has that height of awareness, they feel for the horses limbs/feet/balance as if they were their own. If you have to think about what foot to move, then you will be late with your timing but…if you think of the horses feet as being your own body extension then you both move and work as one and there comes a place where you will be right on.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7009953]
Does the concept of submission not bother anyone other than me? This was what I had issues with in competitive dressage. I want my horse to decide willingly that I’m worth following, and the idea that a certain head position without gaping etc is “submission” just…irks me. Do I want my horse to respond to me “under pressure”? Yes, but I want it to be because he understands that 90% of the time we’re doing things together but in moments of peril I ought to be able to say “here trust me” and sometimes he ought to be able to say the same thing.

As far as the recycling of energy goes, I think that’s like algebra - everyone understands how to do it, but very few can explain why it works. As Pocket Pony mentioned, I think it is about the mind, but not perhaps the way I’d like to think of it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am in agreement with you about submission. In theory, I get that it should ideally be a mental thing, a connection between horse and rider. In practice, it seems to be more about a physical thing - keeping the horse’s head in one position with the mouth closed shut whilst going around in circles.

That’s why I’m interested in other things - in riding with a purpose, so to speak. One day after seeing a video of someone working with the garrocha, I got out my longe whip and dragged it behind me, planted it in the ground and rode a circle around it, moved it from side to side, etc. It was a very crude attempt and just playing around with a tool from horseback, but dang if things didn’t come together. Instead of thinking “well I’m doing a circle so this leg needs to be here and that leg needs to be there and my shoulders should do this, etc.” I just rode. I felt in my body what I needed to do to make an even circle around the stick; I used my body to move my horse in a direction to keep a certain distance from the stick, whatever. It was about feeling and doing, not thinking and doing, if that makes sense.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7009953]
Does the concept of submission not bother anyone other than me? This was what I had issues with in competitive dressage. I want my horse to decide willingly that I’m worth following, and the idea that a certain head position without gaping etc is “submission” just…irks me. [/QUOTE]

I hate the term and, less so, the value. But I acknowledge that whether the horse is being asked to tolerate our directly touching the inside of his mouth via the reins, or he is being asked to listen for a signal, he’s submitting to our… indoctrination. Meh, welcome to training an animal who didn’t think up the project of becoming a finished dressager or cattle mover of his own accord.

The big problem with the way the term “submission” is used in Dressage parlance is that it’s looking for rather macro and crude signs of the horse going weil into the contact. Ideally, that comes from a great rider. But heck, we’ll settle for the mouth not being open or the head down regardless of the rider’s part in creating those bad things.

[OneGrayPony]

This just all brings me to tears (in a good way!!). I feel like I’ve found my people!

I’ve never tried that with a longe whip but now I’m inspired, though I think my gelding may think I’ve lost my ever loving mind.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=mvp;7010029]
I hate the term and, less so, the value. But I acknowledge that whether the horse is being asked to tolerate our directly touching the inside of his mouth via the reins, or he is being asked to listen for a signal, he’s submitting to our… indoctrination. Meh, welcome to training an animal who didn’t think up the project of becoming a finished dressager or cattle mover of his own accord.

The big problem with the way the term “submission” is used in Dressage parlance is that it’s looking for rather macro and crude signs of the horse going weil into the contact. Ideally, that comes from a great rider. But heck, we’ll settle for the mouth not being open or the head down regardless of the rider’s part in creating those bad things.[/QUOTE]

All of what you say is true, but I bolded the last part because I think that’s the problem with competition. People want to compete, they don’t necessarily want to learn to ride well or develop a relationship or true communication and partnership with the horse. People may think they want a sensitive animal who thinks and chooses to be on board with the program, but when the horse chooses to think for himself and do something else (be spooky, be balky, buck, scoot, rear, be tense, whatever), it really shows that some people want a motorcycle with four legs and a pretty mane. So if people would learn how to work with the whole of their horse (getting into the mind and the body, and, well, the soul), then they could more easily become good riders because the horse would more willingly want to be with them. Maybe that is all butterfly farts and fairy dust, but I like to think it is true. So the rider could take an active part in creating good things if they would be willing to slow down a bit and take a step back and look at the situation from another angle.

But then that’s where the trainers come into play. And trainers make money off of riders who show. And trainers make money off of getting people horses they can’t really ride and therefore must be in a training program. And so on and so on and so on. :barf: Anyway, that was a bunch of huge generalizations and obviously not everyone is like that.

OGP, it was fun to play with the whip! I swirled it over our heads and also side-to-side, dragged the lash behind us, let it fall/dangle around his legs, etc. It has a little too much give and bend to do a lot with it - I think a long broom handle might be an interesting thing to try next - but the concept was fun to experiment with.

[Fillabeana]

People want to compete, they don’t necessarily want to learn to ride well or develop a relationship or true communication and partnership with the horse. People may think they want a sensitive animal who thinks and chooses to be on board with the program, but when the horse chooses to think for himself and do something else (be spooky, be balky, buck, scoot, rear, be tense, whatever), it really shows that some people want a motorcycle with four legs and a pretty mane. So if people would learn how to work with the whole of their horse (getting into the mind and the body, and, well, the soul), then they could more easily become good riders because the horse would more willingly want to be with them. Maybe that is all butterfly farts and fairy dust, but I like to think it is true. So the rider could take an active part in creating good things if they would be willing to slow down a bit and take a step back and look at the situation from another angle.

Amen!

When a rider is really invested in how they look to other people, the horse ‘makes them look bad’ by ‘mis-behaving’.
If, and when, the rider/handler can let GO of what all the other peoples think, and treasure the opportunity of a public appearance in a clinic to really LEARN what is going on with the horse as it relates to what the PERSON knows, big things happen.

I count myself blessed, in my first Buck clinic, to have had him take my horse away and teach him something- both something mundane, as how to properly respond on a halter/lead rope, and something profound, as how to turn loose mentally.
At first I was terribly embarrassed and wanted to disappear.
But when I realized that ‘everybody watching’ was rooting for me, supporting me, to learn what I needed (other than the people who didn’t…but I had to let go of what they thought!), it was better.

My second clinic didn’t feel like some sort of public appearance where my talent, or lack of same, was being judged by my horse’s behavior.

[DLee]

I just spent the last few days riding with Mindy again, so thrilled she came back. What a great experience! Every time it makes more and more sense, I get more and see/feel where we are headed.
On the huge plus side she said my mare was WAY better than when she was here before.

We did some tarp work, she used the tarp as a flag, basically, in working my hind/front end yields, we drug it also. Annie saw her first herd of cows. :eek: She is definitely more supple than she was in April, taking longer steps and being softer.

Signed her up for her first little dressage show the first of August. Loving the path we’re on!