Got it. Sorry. I think we got it, but it’s easy to slip into saying “her” instead of “the” trainer.
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I had to really stop and think about what I am doing when I halt normally (again - NOT ON THE HORSE IN OP) this morning. It’s very difficult sometimes for me to explain all the things I am doing and I am well aware that my explanations are not always correct terminology.
I have a great halt right now with my half-lease (NOT THE HORSE IN OP). This morning, we did a pretty square halt with a lot of softness in the contact then a nice depart. I ask him to halt with my seat and have been working on it being a tilt without becoming too heavy in the saddle. He responds very well to this. I keep my reins in a steady contact for this movement. Once he halts, there is a light release but he remains pretty engaged in the contact. I can remain at the halt for some time like this. I did catch myself squeezing my hands a little. Not pulling, not seesawing, not even moving my hands, just squeezing my fingers closed a little. Is this wrong? There should be steady contact into the halt, then a light release as reward and that’s it?
Would this be considered “massaging” or would this be considered active contact or would this be considered see sawing?
We depart again by a tilt of my seat and maybe light leg to back it up, but normally he goes better just from my seat.
Oh, and also to be clear - he is a very forward going horse and needs more leg on than off, so my leg remains on. And ETA: of course there is a light should-fore in our halt too. See? This is why I can’t explain things - it’s so much feel.
@netg Would love your feedback here as well.
All of this ^^^^^^ is not the horse in OP. I have a feeling there is too much giving away of the reins with OP horse. He gets so heavy in the contact that there is a struggle at times to keep him more light. So my bad action into his halts must be that I’m giving the reins away a) too much (as in vs just a release/reward), b) too soon.
I’m not sure when I will ride OP horse again but will definitely consult my trainer before getting on him again regarding this.
Understood, I would just hate for this to somehow muddy the name of someone whom I greatly respect.
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OK, I didn’t realize that the giraffe was a one time and first ride. I am going to make a wild guess that the see saw advice came from his owner? And that’s how owner rides?
If that is indeed the case, you might be better off just not going forward with this lease or opportunity or whatever.
There are lots of constructive things you can do with such a horse but they involve going back to basics and teaching contact.
You can’t do this two days a week if the other rider(s) are getting on and see sawing the rest of the time.
What you describe on your regular horse is squeeze and release. That is not see-saw and it is not even massage. It is riding correctly.
I see lots of riders who see-saw. Jab jab inside then outside rein. Sometimes with their hands down on their thighs. Sometimes these horses flip their heads side to side when they go on a loose rein.
It is all wrong, but it is done to get a “round frame” fast and cheap: nose on the vertical or behind but rear end not engaged.
I would suggest staying away from a riding opportunity that is embedded in bad technique, because the owner will want you to ride like she does. And will not appreciate any implied criticism of her approach.
Owner will think you are lazy, incompetent, or wilfully disobedient if you can’t follow simple directions. And if you try to explain what you are doing, you are an ignorant brat that doesn’t know anything.
If this is indeed a lease trial or similar, and see-saw Marjory Daw is connected to the horse in any position of authority like owner or trainer: run run run away.
Each person has so many nuances to their own riding that it is hard to say exactly who is right and who is wrong . . . except when it comes to the see-sawing comment.
Yes, there are people who see-saw.
Then there are people who see other people working on lateral flexions and to the observer’s uneducated eye it looks just like see-sawing, so that is what they try to emulate. I’ve seen it numerous times in clinics and it makes me cringe.
Lateral flexions are a way of loosening up a horse’s poll, a way of asking them to give to the bit the right way and lightly, asking for softness in the jaw. All of this can be done at the halt and I do it with young/green horses in-hand and also when first mounting. It is helpful as a tool that will benefit the horse & rider in all gaits. But it is not see-sawing. There is a “feel and timing” aspect of it where feeling the right answer from the horse and timing the release to reward the horse is the most important part. When moving in a gait the timing is also important as doing it at the right time results in softness and doing it at the wrong time results in tension or resistance.
Having said that I’m not clear if you are working on soft transitions into the halt or when you do halt the horse immediately goes into giraffe mode?
When I transition into halt I use more breath and abs and try to use as little rein as possible. I teach my horses to follow my breath (which affects my abs - perhaps it is the combination of sound and what shift in my body they feel, though it works the same in groundwork/lunging) for downward transitions and try to use a steady or resisting hand without pulling. Moving into the halt I can feel what sort of halt I’m going to get before actually getting there, so if the horse starts getting tense, I won’t go for that halt and I’ll move forward and try again. Once I’m in the halt I pretty much take what I get and if I’m not satisfied with the quality we’ll go off again at a walk or trot and then try another halt and so on. When I get improvement (not perfection), I drop the reins and we just chill out there or go for a walk break.
I think that shaping the halt you want is important. It isn’t going to be perfect right off the bat. You can’t do everything at once. So you need to move into getting good halts - start with keeping a steady tempo and accepting a not-so-square halt. Move on to focusing on softness and a not-so-square halt. Then when you feel like softness is good, go for a square halt and accept that you may lose some softness. Or however the progression works out for you. You don’t go from crappy halt to perfect halt in one go. You shape the movement along the way and teach your horse what the right answer is. The teaching is in the reward and when you say good and stop working on that movement or end the ride right there when something really special happened.
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It’s more that we will have a halt, and it will be nice (maybe not great, but nice) but the longer we remain still, the more tense and hollow he becomes.
I have worked to patiently wait, leg on, softly asking for him to relax but sometimes this works and other times it does not.
As previously mentioned, we had a lot of success in our last ride with slowly bringing him back ever so slowly, almost to a halt, then going back to working walk or trot. And I was able after some practice to accomplish a very short halt (like maaaaybe a second at most) before asking him to push off again from behind. Those brought the best change to him I felt and he still remained fairly soft in the contact.
Slightly off topic - I love your comment about teaching horses to follow off breathing and how it might affect abs - it definitely does! Any yoga or pilates exercise will ask you to complete all the movements as you breathe in or out, this is in part (at least for pilates) because because while breathing you are forcing your abs to engage. So I’m sure that is playing a part in it for you with breathing. And I also totally agree. I audited a Susanne von Dietze clinic a couple years back and thoroughly enjoyed the breathing exercises she had her riders do at various gaits. It helped to remain better tempo and rhythm.
I love how nerdy and biomechanical this topic has become. I hope others will have more input.
Thanks all!
Chiming in that the difference between the French and German schools may be part of this. I think the trainer was just wrong, but there are ways to play with the bit, as a few have noted to ask the horse to accept contact. A recent Charlotte or Carl clinic recap briefly noted a very apt description of the main difference I see between French and German. The French want softness before they add power. I grew up with a more German approach - never touch the mouth “first.” But it’s possible to supple the mouth without riding backward. If a horse is rooting down onto the bit or bracing or somehow manifesting tension in the poll/mouth, pushing the horseto that is only going to increase tension. But I would advise getting guidance on how to do this. There are different French schools and the extreme of flexions is a bit like the Parelli of the French - too dogmatic. But to say “always” leg first is a bit too German and I like the options offered by the French approach,
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I used to teach yoga. :winkgrin: I use breath a lot in riding and ground work.
There are two ways you can go about it. If the horse doesn’t want to stand still you can put him right back to work and offer him a halt and see if he wants to stand still and if not then right back to work…rinse, repeat.
Or, you could halt, feel when he’s about to invert or be fidgety, and release before that happens and then just try to lengthen the time that he’ll stay in halt. If you have an over-thinker, this might not work, and it requires great timing on your part because if you reward the fidget then that is what you are building into the horse. You need to reward the chill. So you could halt, and release the reins as your first try. Then halt and wait one second and then release the reins. Then halt and wait two seconds and then release the reins. And so on… This all supposes, of course, that the horse is not in pain for some reason and the halt is actually physically uncomfortable for him.
The horse needs to learn to stand and chill. Do you ever just stand around and chill out? At the end of a lesson just stand in the arena while others work (or by yourself). This is the non-glamorous stuff that many people don’t see as important or interesting but it is. It is hard when it isn’t your horse to try to deal with this stuff because other riders may just want to get on and go, go, go.
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You have your answer to start to address your question here.
If he offers you a halt…then quit while you are ahead!
Move off!! Go to work.
Ask again…ask for the halt…BEFORE he fidgets…move off.
Ask again…ask for the halt…BEFORE he fidgets…move off.
Ask again…ask for the halt…BEFORE he fidgets…move off.
Get the picture?
The halt should be a place he looks forward to and learns to relax.
You cannot IMPOSE calm on the horse…the horse has to offer it as he learns to chill. As the horse learns you can wait longer and longer until you have a proper halt.
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THIS!!!
I had a nice little walk through of the halt with my trainer (on the ground) the other day. And she pretty much echoed what you said. In addition to this, we both agreed that OP horse is a very special case, but the ideal way to keep him soft in the halt is to “not be in the halt” ie_ don’t throw it all away, don’t relax. I need to actively ride him even at the halt, otherwise he just thinks it’s over and he can switch over to his relaxing, old man-ness.
I told her how much success we had in the our last ride with the almost-halt transitions, which later turned into really nice brief halt transitions. And she confirmed that was the key to his halt. <3
This chick right here. So guilty to using reward too often. Always good to keep that in mind.
This is off Emipou’s topic at shows I’m responding, but…
I wish everyone could learn this lesson. Some horses are chill, so you can be tough and they say, “Oops, sorry, I’ll stand.” But when a horse is not inherently calm, you must invite it there and set it up to succeed at the calm. It’s a much greater message than this one instance, and if learned the lesson is hugely rewarding for horse and rider.
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