The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal is expensive, go look at this:
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm
And then shut your mouth!
end of rant
Wow. How on earth are breeder’s expected to make a profit? Somebody enlighten me…
STF, It’s amazing to see it in black and white… it’s costly to breed and that puts it really into perspective. I don’t know how small breeders make a living, and again, that’s if nothing goes wrong… my hat is off to all of you breeders!
Most dont make money, they do it because they LOVE it and love the match making, the foaling, the new foal smells, the velvet coats and the whole ordeal. As sick as it seems, there is a huge swell of pride everytime a breeder foals a baby from their matchmaking combo.
Each of you should look up the breeder of your current horses and send them a Thank You card for the lovely horses you have, because they surely dont do it for the money.
What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don’t disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren’t true for everyone.
Yes, these numbers may not be true for everyone and while they may be lower for some lucky breeders I would bet (judging by the many threads about not getting mare’s in foal etc. etc.) that for a lot of breeders they might actually end up higher than STF’s estimates!
Actually, I think STF costs are VERY LOW.
My vet costs are typically much higher. Last year I spent $10,500 in vet bills to breed 3 mares (vet costs only). One mare got pregnant on one cycle. One mare got pregnant on the 2nd cycle, and the 3rd mare did not get pregnant. I spent $3000 on frozen semen for two mares, and the 3rd mare was given a free breeding with frozen as she was the #1 mare in USA. So, for two mares to get pregnant I spent $13,500 just in vet costs and stud fees.
My mares are all Elite or SPS. In many cases, I paid alot for them, what about their depreciation? or their purchase cost amortized per foal? I don’t see where STF factored any of the investment of the mare into her foal. I also spend alot more on feed, shavings,e tc.
You cannot leave a mare to foal outside in many situations given weather or complications (health issues with mare and foal). So it is not really an option to not have a stall for a full term pregnant mare and after foaling. Many foals are not ready to be outside full time when they are born for health/weather reasons.
What about breeders than own their own stallion?
Then take about 12% off the total costs. Even those of us who do own our own stallions, most of us do NOT live cover for safety reasons. So the only thing that would change would be the stud fee.
What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay.
Most breeders who breed top quality stock are NOT going to have a mare foal in a field or take the chance of not having someone there in case something goes wrong. Top quality mares are costly and to much to risk a complication. Not to mention the breeders stay up weeks and weeks for foal watch.
What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop?
Yes, that can happen. It will change your total 5-8%.
Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered?
Most reputable breeders will want their foals inspected and full papers given to them.
And this is saying NOTHING goes wrong, the mare takes on the first time, no multi collections, vet costs, hauling to vet, etc, etc.
Well Im sure if you look around you can find someone who owns a stud that bred it to some mare and doesnt keep it inside…why even handle it! Papers- who rides papers anyway- you dont need them. Inspections are the for the elitest anyway. Tuff babies grow up without trimming just like mustangs I bet. And shots, well if they dont go anywhere they wouldnt need them or a coggins. Heck in the old days horses used to jump up into the bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!
Yes Im sure you can find it out there…but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o
I don’t see where STF factored any of the investment of the mare into her foal. I also spend alot more on feed, shavings,e tc.
Your right. Im working on that currently. Im trying to figure out a better deprecation scale than what the IRS gives us based on some factors. Im still beating it up on the 10key. If someone pays 30K for a nice mare and the average mare repo lifespan is, say 8-10 foals then the mare loses value each year. But… Im still trying to justify a % or number of how many foals a mare can have. Plus… we all know the older the mare, the more issues she has, etc. So… sigh, Im still beating this cost factor into the ground. (Yeah, Im an accountant… I cant help it!) :lol:
Also, Id id not factor in taxes that need to be allocated either. There are a few things missing in the total cost structure I have up there.
Hey, share some of that your drinking!!! :lol:
bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!
S**t!! That is another cost. Some breeders have a special horse trailer only for foals and mares for easy hauling. We have one that has removeable partitions and is low to the ground, etc. I know many breeders who have special trailers just for this. I forgot that costs.
ltw, did you really mean $10,500? If so, what were some of the breakdown costs in that? That seems really excessive to me.
Interesting thread, I agree that this does not hold true for everyone.
Costs of bedding around here, sawdust, is about $15 a month per horse.
Also, mares can live out a good portion of the year.
BAbies surely can live out after weaning?
As far as cost, you forgot the huge vet bills, deaths, of some of the stock, thereby killing your profit entirely!
[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;2605166]
What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don’t disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren’t true for everyone.[/QUOTE]
I’ll bite:
1)owned own stallion: first the 5 figure value of the colt at coming 2 (I did not breed him myself) then the usual costs after that to raise/train to breeding age. He didn’t fall off the turnip truck for free…and boy is it hard to find trainers that will take a stallion!!!
2) you can’t assume a breeder got a multi mare or premium mare discount. Even assuming you did get a discount (up to 20% for such things) really knocking up to 300 bucks off the total cost is a drop in the bucket.
3) Inspection costs: the mare owner paid them, didn’t they? It is an operating expense, but not a donation.
4) our horses live out a lot but do come in at night during the winter…so there are some bedding costs. Hay is a whole nuther ball of wax. We have 12 to 13 horses on 34 acres. Not overcrowded by a longshot…but we DO still have to hay. There are about 3 mos out of the year that the pasture is so lovely we don’t need to. Certainly in the winter they are not living for free! They get grained twice a day and plenty of hay to keep warm when it is butt cold out. Summer when the pasture is good the grain is cut down to once a day for that 3 months the pasture is oh so lovely. Even then grass alone is not nutritionally balanced as the only feed for a broodmare. Yes, mustangs live that way. They also are a lot smaller, hardier and die a lot quicker in the wild. Not really optimal conditions.
For me to get a foal to 16 mos old with my lower overhead (less feed with good pasture and limited times of the year they are in w/ shavings) it costs me about 6K and I do not include some of the things on Spindletops list. Mine only includes directs horsecare expenses.
As someone noted, none of this takes into account the cost of the mare either. When I price a foal I feel the need to figure in 20% of the cost of the mare. It takes 5 foals to pay for the mare in this respect. And no…most of the mares here would NOT be here anyway if I was not breeding. I would have 2 riding horses. The 2 I kept for myself I don’t actually even factor in to the operating costs of the breeding end as they ARE recreational to me so nope…the foal buyer isn’t paying me for their upkeep.
[QUOTE=carosello;2605200]
. . . . but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o[/QUOTE]
Actually, some of those people ARE here on this board. We should get County to enter this discussion. I believe he has said he can sell his QH weanlings for $600 & make money. It would be educational to find out exactly how he does it.
True but County isnt breeding warmbloods. But you are correct about the rest I think 
Oh LaNet…Im just high on life tonight dontchaknow!
[QUOTE=carosello;2605200]
Well Im sure if you look around you can find someone who owns a stud that bred it to some mare and doesnt keep it inside…why even handle it! Papers- who rides papers anyway- you dont need them. Inspections are the for the elitest anyway. Tuff babies grow up without trimming just like mustangs I bet. And shots, well if they dont go anywhere they wouldnt need them or a coggins. Heck in the old days horses used to jump up into the bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!
Yes Im sure you can find it out there…but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
LaNet, if I am ever in TX, I am taking you to dinner. Thank you!:D:yes:
Actually County didn’t say he could sell all his foals for $600 at a profit wqe sell some for $2000 some for $1500, some years $3500 all depends on the market. The goal is to make a profit on the herd same as with our cattle. Costs for the horses is slightly higher then for the cattle. We can make a profit on the cattle if we average $525 a calf with foals its just over $600.
Costs are going to vary a HUGE amount from one person to the next. How you house them is very differant, feed costs are a HUGE differance around the country, if you use pasture most the year for roughage or feed hay is going to be a great deal differant for costs. If you foal inside or outside will make a differance, theres many many things that are going to make one type breeding operation profitable and another not so.
There is no right or wrong way that I’ve ever seen only differant ways.
Then you need to factor in the cost of keeping the stallion.
What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay.
I know of very few places that mares won’t need hay at least part of the year. I live in Oklahoma. Last year there wasn’t a blade of grass to be found on most property here and most breeders were feeding hay in June. Add to that, because of the drought, there was no hay to be found and the hay we did purchase cost us $9.25 a 50 pound bale. And, stalling will be necessary during the later part of pregnancy or at least for most of us.
What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop?
I know of very few quality stallions that even with multiple mare or premium mare discounts will ever get down to $800.00 a pop. I’m puzzled by your question on this as you are the one that was concerned about the quality in this country. A premium mare may get a discount to some stallions, but she will have cost the mare owner more money to purchase. A top stallion with performance records behind him, good breeding and fully licensed is going to have a higher breeding fee. If the stallion is owned by the mare owner, they also will have annual stallion dues to pay.
Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered?
Do you want the foal registered? If you don’t or are planning on doing it yourself, your costs increase again as you’ll probalby need to get it DNA typed, as well as the dam. It’s got to factor in somewhere or else you have an unregistered animal that is now ineligible for breed registry incentives and classes.
I don’t disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren’t true for everyone.
While I agree that some of the costs may not be true for everyone, there are other costs that aren’t included in LaNet’s assessment. I do my own repro work, but the IRS asks what of my costs are for personal use. But I suppose you figure that I shouldn’t be paid for my time of having to get up in the middle of the night and check the mare if I’m using frozen semen, even if it is only a fraction of what you’d pay if you had to use a vet.
I have no doubt that I wouldn’t own the amount of property I do if it wasn’t for breeding! I could live in town and probably have a much nicer house for a lot less money.
And something that isn’t mentioned is the fact that the average live foal rate in horses is about 65%. Let’s be optimistic and say that with warmbloods, it’s 75% because we’re all responsible mare owners and we’re all running IgG tests on every foal, making sure the mare is getting appropriate prenatal care, she’s up to date on her shots, she’s received all of her rhino shots, we’ve got a closed barn so she’s not been exposed to anything, we attend all of our foalings and so we’re able to intervene on any red bag deliveries or dystocias…but even doing all of that, we’re still going to have one out of four mares not produce a foal. LaNet hasn’t factored that in to her equation, so realistically, each foal should cost 25% more to include those additional expenses that don’t result in a marketable foal. We won’t even talk about the foals that are born with issues that require intensive veterinary intervention. And anyone that thinks those numbers are inaccurate, I can assure you that if you do enough breeding and enough foaling, you’ll find the numbers average out…unfortunately.
I also own my own stallion. Sent him through his 100 Day performance test - $10,000 (he went in 1996 so it was a little bit less than now). Competed him through Preliminary level (Level 7-8) - I won’t even venture to guess how much I spent over the years on that <rolling eye>. Advertising every year from 1995 through 2000 averaged close to $5,000 a year. Annual stallion dues, equipment and supplies to collect him, special fencing, additional feed to keep him looking good and fit during breeding season, dewormers, farrier, and so on and so on and so on.
And, if you’re going to argue that all of those costs are deferred by the HUGE number of mares you’re sure all stallions receive - most stallions receive a total of 6 breedings a year. TOTAL!!! And that includes the stallion owner’s own mares. Yeah, there will be some that actually receive more and there will be others that receive none at all, but overall I think you’ll find that those numbers are pretty darn accurate. I’m fortunate in that I don’t do much advertising or promotion and Mannhattan pays his way. But I know of many, many more really well bred, phenomenal performance horses that the owners are doing everything right and they still get only a handful of breedings a year.
Sheesh…after reading through all of this, I really should have my head examined for even THINKING about breeding a mare.
Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
