[QUOTE=county;2607211]
Foals cost exactly what someone is willing to pay for them regardless of what breed they are or how much it cost someone to put it on the ground.[/QUOTE]
Finally after how many posts on this thread…
I hate to say it but, this is FACT! :yes:
okkgo,
I agree with you totally on this. Well said.
Continuing to enjoy the dialog…
Yup, sometimes–whatever moves my business forward is what I’ve done. To sell well, you must invest one of two things: MONEY ('struth: it takes money to make money) or TIME (which could be considered long-term money). I’ve had no real money, so it has indeed taken me TIME.
Here’s the story (took me over half an hour to write it!)…
I’ve said many times over my years on these BBs that I’m in this for the long haul and, as a result, 1.) recognize and accept my advantages and disadvantages, 2.) don’t try to change the world I’m in and how it perceives and operates, and thus 3.) am following a plan that I believe will work within that world. Am I there yet? Juuuust about. (I’ve made a profit in one year and have come oh-so-depressingly close in two others–but mainly by keeping my overhead low (I lived in a shack for $200 per month at one point, in a $600 RV at another, an $1800 single wide at yet another and have never–in my whole life–owned or leased a facility with more than one paddock that had board fencing).
Today, I have a barn full of drop-dead gorgeous, talented, superior beasties, but, alas, as I’ve said on this thread already, “quality does NOT always sell.” Good marketing does. And I, like so many, am not yet there when it comes to selling and prices. Good marketing is expensive–if you are realistic and honest about it. And also, as with sooooo many of us, I could have been, had things gone my way with three horses I had targeted as windfalls (because they would have paid a lot off, making it possible for me afford better and better marketing).
As I’ve said, windfalls are at the heart of my make-a-profit business plan, which the IRS will see if they ever come knocking again (I’ve been audited once already). What happened to the three? One died, one is Teddy who I could have sold for a huge sum but chose to basically give away to the sport of eventing (I’d love it if someone asked me what I mean by that), and the third ill health forced me to lease out before the FL circuit she would have sold extremely well on.
As to the actual answer to your question, what do I sell them for? First, the two biggie no-sales: Colin, who is not on my website because he’s a horse, I turned down $60K for (multiple BNT-praised jumper and made FEI level dressage schoolmaster–he was 7 at the time he was professionally appraised). I turned down that price on Col early in my business because I knew I would always need to have on hand a horse I could use to walk into a barn or show with and be taken seriously. Colin, now age 17, was the Mercedes that got my fat, black butt through many posh doors in spite of the rusty old rig I drove up in); and before he was famous (pre-Karen O’Connor) I turned down $40K for Teddy simply because I thought he was worth more (and was right).
Now, the ones that have kept the biz afloat and progressing: two of Colin’s full siblings sold for low fives as four-year-olds (full TBs, no show records); I’ve sold four, four-year-olds (ponies, three–unbelievably!–13.3h and one 14.0 hands: the measurement issue that can prevent ponies from selling well…and yes, I culled the mare that produced most of them) for $5000; a couple three-year-olds for $3000 (yup, OUCH, and one was really talented, but I had bills to pay–I’d buy him back now, if I could) and three more for $6500 (much more like it, since most were produced and raised for @ $1000 per year–thanks to doing my own vet and farrier work, making stud fee deals, owning my own stallions, and being a good carpenter).
I’ve only ever sold one two-year-old (maybe due to the terrible two-sies, but probably because I just have never really tried to sell any babies at all). She had me dancing in the streets when her butt went out the door for $5000 in the middle of February. I sold a small yearling for $2200, a large yearling for $7500 (but he’s exceptional), a yearling horse filly for $3000 (but I had to sue the buyer to get my money), a couple of culled broodmares for $5000, and maybe half-a-dozen (over the years) outright culls for under $1000, usually at one year old or less (two “dwarfs” as weanlings at $600, three yearling fillies who were plain looking and nasty and so, IMO, not worth struggling with–two ended up unbreakable by their new owners, one just missed qualifying her rider for the Maclay at only five years old–Nope, I’ve not always made the right judgment!).
I gave away a foal that was down in the heels and had a damaged eye I felt wasn’t worth paying to repair. Four offspring out of my best mare (Teddy’s mom–the four were full sibs) have died (two accidents, two MRLS) and so never helped the biz as they should have (a fifth I culled, one of the aforementioned fillies who could never be broke to ride–last I heard, they were still driving her…remember, I intentionally breed some “hot” ponies and some have crossed the line from hot to crazy, quite frankly!). I sold two yearlings at sales, the cheapest of which went on to become a national champion, the other, which also didn’t bring much (I don’t remember the actual sums for either: under $2500), a WEF champion. I sold a half-sibling to Colin in utero for $2400, but that included 7 months of mare care (pasture board in Michigan). I sold another in utero for a similar sum (actually, I think that was under $2k)–both foals were “keep the mare pregnant” throwaways during times when I couldn’t arrange to breed to better stallions. Both nevertheless became winners (although not blue blooded, I have had good mares because I, like many buyers, can recognize a nice mare without an inspector, pedigree or price tag to tell me she’s a nice mare).
I’ve never had anything over the age of five for sale, except Teddy (he’s six figures, obviously), the one full sister of his (who was five-figures before I leased her), and a bunch of horses I did not breed but owned for a variety of reasons (companion mares for my stallion, mostly). I’ve probably forgotten a few here and there in this compilation.
Now, let’s go a bit further with this, as I have in my records and would trot out to the IRS. I’m doing this because I think it will be instructive (good, bad or indifferent–how often do you get to see this out there?). I’ve sold @$115,000 worth of horse flesh in @ 12 years. Not much, by a lot of folks standards, and only one year of profit. But look deeper into the “windfall” business plan, OK. That sum comes out to about $10,000 per year in income on average. Again on average, my biz expenses have been between $20-25,000 per year, year after year, except for 18 months between 2005 and the end of 2006 (the original Teddy and Karen period).
So, if you use those averages, my business has lost between $120-160K roughly since its existance (since I did have quite a few years at closer to $20K, Teddy’s 18 months of hyper-expense are kind of absorbed there–again, roughly!). Meanwhile, the IRS expects you to not only make a profit, but ALSO recoup your losses…
NOW do you see why I believe in the windfall and why all of my business decisions about who to sell, who to keep, and how to promote them and the business are based on producing windfalls? Given what ONE exceptional horse can do (like, had I sold Teddy rather than syndicated him–he is syndicating for a MUCH, MUCH lower price than his actual value, BTW…or had I sold Colin, back when my losses were much closer to his value at the time), can you see why I always argue that what makes sense is to TRY? Why it is just plain WRONG, in my opinion, for any of us lowly breeders to believe we’ll never possibly produce a horse worth six figures? Why can’t we?
We just have to TRY, folks! That’s all the IRS really wants: genuine effort to make a profit. If you don’t, but can show you are truly trying, you’ll be OK (as is my understanding of it). IMO, “trying” is the best biz plan of all because setting high goals, even when you only have lowly resources, still forces you to really, truly improve your herd based on objective market facts, not your personal preferences or perceptions–perhaps our biggest collective problem. For example, I think white markings are gaudy, but there’s a LOT more white markings in my herd these days. And I really hate a lot about the hunter industry, but I’m still keeping up with and selling to it.
We (little guys) have to resist selling ourselves short and because we are little guys, we also have to be ruthless in assessing what we have (past factors), what we are capable of doing with it (present factors) and how we can increase the value of what we create in the future. That’s the ONLY philosophy that makes sense for we breeders who can’t take advantage of those two, most important business axioms: “It takes money to make money,” and “Location, location, location.”
[Hey, now that was an interesting experience for me–writing all that out for public consumption. I hope someone finds it interesting. :D]
PWynn- I, for one, truly thank you for taking the time to throw that out there. Food for thought IMHO.
Foals are WORTH whatever a buyer is willing to pay for them. They COST whatever they cost to produce.
STF’s list which started this thread lays out what it might typically cost her to produce a foal - it does not lay out the foals worth.
As to all the discussion of business models and choices, hopefully a breeder raises foals to meet the demands of their market which differ greatly between a ranch/trail horse, a dressage prospect and a conformation hunter prospect and prices in these markets differ.
Conformation hunter prospect; typically shown in-hand through age 3, cannot have splints, bumps on tendons, better if minimal scarring on any body part. Show experience is a significant cost which the breeder hopes to recoup in the eventual sales price. This prospect is not thrown out in a field with buddies. Maybe it gets a field of its own next to buddies. Special feeding programs, lots of handling etc. so here’s that dreaded word, lots of costs. The hope is that a successful prospect sells for market price, which in this particular market, can be quite high. The risks are huge. Maybe it’s got perfect conformation, beautiful movement and a spectacular jump that only a professional can ride. Two attributes that add to the market value (worth) one that detracts - horses that only a pro can ride are not very useful to an amateur.
The point is breeding is a complex business and there are many different markets people are trying to address with their breeding programs and not many generalities that apply to the business of breeding.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Pwynn. That was instructive, enjoyable (if sobering) and a real reality check.
I guess that part of what it takes to be a good breeder is love of horses (I’m including ponies, here), the knowledge to understand the steps to achieve your vision, and the hard-headed business sense to implement what’s necessary to get there.
When I buy a horse, I don’t give a darn what you shoveled into it for feed and shavings costs. I care what that horse is worth to ME. And if it’s not worth it to me, I won’t pay it. As someone else said, I don’t care two rats fannies about paying for your food and shelter costs. I don’t care if that mare slept on silk threads for bedding and slurped up caviarre for 11 months. If that baby isn’t worth 10K to me, then I’m not paying it. Period. You can find another buyer who will. More power to ya.
I paid $1,000 for my endurance horse. Lovely mare, great mind and athleticism, fantastic breeding, personality galore, and excellent conformation. One time I had someone meet me on the trail and ask if she was an Akhal Teke. I laughed and said, why, does she look like one? The lady said, oh my gosh, she looks like a 50 thousand dollar import! :eek: Um, nope. She’s a 1K Arab, local bred.
I guarantee you that breeder had more than a grand into that baby at weaning time. But when I looked at her, she was wormy and disgusting and it would take me a full 4 years of waiting before I could compete her. So to me, she was worth a thousand bucks and no more. That’s just me. I saw the ad for her, went to see her, and offered them less than what they were asking, but what I was willing to pay. They gladly accepted the offer and I had my horse.
Lovely mare with tons of talent and hopefully many good competition years for me. A thousand dollars. I’ve said this before on other threads, but I’ll never pay 10K for a horse. If some people want to, that’s just fine. Everybody can make their own decisions. I’m not jealous or angry about it, I just don’t see any need to. 
Getting Back to the raising horses like livestock in Europe.
We have converted a big cow barn into two sides. One for colts one for fillies. Both open up to all weather pen areas. They come in at night all winter. I make sure bully’s don’t take food away from a shy eater and it all works fine. A big round bale of straw. Mucking is easier, much easier, bedding is lower and the babies are very happy. They are in from the endless wet and if we don’t want to poach fields in the really bad wet spells, they have an area to go to for fresh air and exercise. It cuts down costs and labor and gets them out of harsh weather. They don’t have to have a stable to be comfy, happy, warm, and dry. I try and keep everything out as much as possible barring the ones being ridden. Turnout rugs are money well spent in comparisons to keeping a mare in for months on end. As we do all our own work, labor has to be cut to make things run smooth. This does not mean horses are not looked after but you can cut costs and still have horses well looked after. As long as I don’t have anything wallowing around in 6ft of mud during the winter, I’m happy and so are they.
Terri
What people need to understand is that just as a buyer is free to offer whatever they wish for a horse, the seller is also free to ask what they wish for a horse. The buyer may not get the horse for their offer and the seller may not be able to sell the horse, but all this indignation over horse prices is just silly. As a seller, I don’t want to listen to a lecture on the points of my horse and why the buyer thinks it is worth so much less and in turn, I won’t lecture a buyer over why I think their offer is ludicrous. Just say “no thanks” and walk away. I’ve said it before but it is worth repeating: A horse’s price is determined by how badly the buyer wants to buy and how badly the seller wants to sell at the time of the sale.
Pwynn, I’ve looked at your website and I see mostly grade ponies which makes sense to me as to why you would not even think of paying $10,000 for a weanling. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
This is beginning to become redundant.
I think we all agree that not all weanlings are worth $10,000+ even with the same pedigree as another that sold at that price.
Buyers expect to see a quality youngster before they will pay that premium price, no matter how much it cost the breeder to get it on the ground and raise it.
I was recently shopping for a new show horse. Everything that I felt was quality was in the $40,000 and up price range for a 3 year old. It only make sense to me that a rider who wants a quality competitive horse and doesn’t have $40,000 to spend, will need to buy a quality weanling in the $10,000 range. If they are nervous about investing money on a youngster, then they should get mortality and medical insurance on the baby.
If a buyer doesn’t want to spend $10,000 on a weanling, then move on to the next horse and find one that you can afford. How does that saying go? … Champaigne taste on a beer budget?
Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see. All of my sportponies are at least half TB–most are 3/4. There’s just no registry for them (actually, Teddy’s mom is registered with the American Remount Association, but who cares–which is why I haven’t registered any of the other 1/2 TB broodmares I’ve had) and as I’ve said for years, I don’t think the current WB registries offer enough for my business to make it worth my while going through the trouble and expense to have them registered via inspection (or even going a performance route). All of the remaining (hunter) ponies are registered either half or full welsh. Moreover, even my foundation mare was registered, as was my foundation stallion and all of the outside stallions I’ve bred to.
But if you want to continue to be selectively perceptive, be my guest!
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2607821]
Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see. All of my ponies are at least half TB–most are 3/4. There’s just no registry for them (actually, Teddy’s mom is registered with the American Remount Association, but who cares–which is why I haven’t registered any of the other 1/2 TB broodmares I’ve had) and as I’ve said for years, I don’t think the current WB registries offer enough for my business to make it worth my while going through the trouble and expense to have them registered via inspection (or even going a performance route). All of the remaining ponies are registered either half or full welsh. Moreover, even my foundation mare was registered, as was my foundation stallion and all of the outside stallions I’ve bred to.
But if you want to continue to be selectively perceptive, be my guest! :D[/QUOTE]
Absolutely I can’t get over some of the thinking on this BB. You have a breeding program that created a champion eventer, but according to some people, he is still just a “grade pony”! You just got lucky according to them because Teddy is not a WB, so he must be just a fluke. The stars just magically aligned and some TBs and others got together and actually managed to produce a champion sporthorse. Who’d have thunk it! I’ll bet you’ve had quite a few other really good horses come out of your program too. Good grief!
Congratulations on Teddy, btw - he makes me feel good every time I hear him mentioned or see his pic
Well with out reading this entire thread…I think the costing has some errors in it…or at the very least my expenses would differ…maybe due in part to where I live
the hay cost is bang on with what I would have to pay.
the grain cost is high…I would only spend $20.00 per month
Shavings I would pay $350.00 for a load of which I only need 1 and that gets divided by the number of horses I have which is 8 so monthly that converts to…thats $3.60 per horse per month…so that is $57.60 for shavings for 16 months
My farrier costs are $35.00 for a trim of which I do on an average 6 to 8 weeks…so for 16 months of the mare that is 8 times and for the foal that would be 3 times…so 11 times $35.00 is $385.00 so close.
I actually think regular vet costs are low…I think mine are closer to $500.00
There is no way each of my horses consumes $7.00 of water each a month…we are on our own well so I would lump this into electrical…mine for the barn (we have a separate meter) is about $50.00 every two months.
Divided by eight horses…is $50.00 for each horse for the 16 months.
Farm insurance is about $500.00 a year…so cost that out over 8 horses and it works out to $83.00 for the 16 month period.
I can’t comment of farm labor as I do everything myself…but I think for each horse it is high.
The breeding end looks bang on
So if you do the math I have $4,447.00 less of an expense to raise the foal to weaning based on my operating costs per month, per horse.
Dalemms
The success of any breeding program has plenty of sweat equity, serious decisions and occasional luck. Prices are based on desirable qualities and type for purpose, not just fashionable pedigree. I understand avoiding the politics of registries, but hope that a paper trail and dna verification follows my young stock when they leave the driveway. The comraderie and serious discussions about heritable traits with my registry friends goes way beyond the paperwork. Kudos to those who can go it alone! It gets lonely out there. And to Teddy and his family, congratulations–it is very exciting to breed a national and international champion!!
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2607821]
Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see. [/QUOTE]
I consider those grade horses. Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.
With the cost of board, training, farrier and vet, I wouldn’t take one of those for free. I believe the OP was referring to fancy WB’s bred for dressage competition.
THANK YOU!
The part everyone has totally misunderstood… :mad: is that I was pointing out why so many breeders have a price tag on their foals that they do. Not saying that is what the foal is worth, or hell - it may be worth MORE than that. I dont know, but the point is, breeding is expensive and dont belittle breeders for their efforts. If you dont like what you see, go buy your own broodmares and breed your own and drop you OWN money into it.
It occurs to me, that the cost of raising a baby varies dramatically based on numerous factors. Some of those factors (in uterio and early nutrition, choice of better mare, better stallion) probably affect the quality and value of the resulting offspring. Other factors (choice of shavings vs living outside, some labor intensive practices, etc) probably do not affect the foal’s value at all. Still other factors just “are what they are”-- ie one person inherited 100 acres of great pasture with a barn on it, while another struggles to pay the mortgage and taxes on a tiny ranchette.
Then, beyond all those factors, there is pure luck. Sometimes you breed two great horses, and get a puke. Sometimes you breed two pukes and get a great one.
The next layer of complexity is whether or not you find potential buyers who can tell the difference between the great one, and the puke. I’ve seen people spend laughable amounts of money on a puke based on it coming from a big name breeder and great parents. I’ve seen people have the eye and discernment to buy a “no name” baby, for very cheap-- and go on to make it a champion.
I carefully track my expenses, and know what I have in each of my horses. I think it’s important to know this. But I don’t price my horses based on this. I evaluate them as individuals, against the competition and the market, and that determines my price. I have one for sale now that is quite nice-- but he did try pretty hard to kill himself as a baby, and I have lots of vet bills invested. He is not priced to recoup the vet bills-- that was just my bad luck, it has no bearing on his value. His price reflects his conformation, disposition, and movement-- not whether I paid too many vet bills, or picked his stall with a gold plated pitchfork or gave him only bottled water to drink or overpaid for his momma.
I guess I’m just trying to illustrate that the COST is pretty much seperate and distinct from the WORTH of a particular horse. As a breeder, if I consistently spend more to produce horses than they are WORTH-- well, I’m not doing a very good job. I need to change my program. I evaluated my babies, and I do compare the worth/selling price to the cost, because on average and over time, if I am doing a competent job, I should be spending less than I recoup. If I can’t, I need to tweak my program or do something else.
I’ve bought and sold horses ranging from $400 to $75,000. There was not a single time that what I’d pay, or what I’d take for the horse, was based on a cost model. It was based on what the horse was worth in the market.
Im still waiting for some of the experts to show me where I can find a foal out of a top grade Hano mare (Elite/SPS) by one of the top/proven stallions for less than 10K?
Me thinks its time some people do some of their own market studies!
PS - when you do market studies, you have to compare like to like.
You cant compare a QH/Pony cross with a Prem. Hanovierian or type colt. Its impossible. That is the point I dont think a lot of you see.
Like I have said over and over, many of you are arguing apples to oranges.
I find it funny that the people who have the most problem with this thread are the NON Warmblood breeders too and even some that make a point to let other know they dont even like WB breeds. Go figure?!?!
Wynn…you can give any one of yours anyday! giggle. I think this poster is clueless as to the success of your breeding program of “grade” horses! LOL!
diamondgirl…one of Wynn’s “grade” ponies just won double gold at the Pan am games. I would think she would have a waiting list right now for her ponies!
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