No, thats not what Im saying. Each cost is set by its own operation. What Im saying is you cant compare two seperate types of industry. What a draft is going to sell for is not what a top bred WB will sell for, changing profit margins drasticly.
$28 for farrier? HUH? I get a great rate of $20 for a trim but my mares are done every 6 weeks and once they foal the babies are done every 6 weeks too.
Now the inspection fees are higher than what we pay but overall a pretty good breakdown. Maybe all breeders should put a link to it on their site :yes:
So in your best condescending voice please explain what you mean. I’m not an accountant so I must be a moron so speak slowly and in words of one syllable.
Im not getting in to your sarcasm. I have obviously offened you. You can work with your own accountant and understand how cost compaisions work and how industry standards change comparisions.
I haven’t read beyond the first few posts because IMO the thread started with such bull (in terms of logic and reasoning), I can’t wait to respond (:winkgrin:).
Peeeeoooopppplllle, I’d agree with the OP if she took the time to QUALIFY HER STATEMENTS!!!
The horse industry isn’t just YOUR part of it and what YOU choose to do in it! If you choose to breed horses in such a way that 75% of your costs are overhead, that’s your choice! It doesn’t make what you produce worth more, for heavens sake. DUHHHHH!!!
Are you at allll aware of breeders out west in other breeds who produce both expensive and reasonable babies in an entirely different way and such that the prices asked reflect the beasts’ traits, not the breeder’s choices?
Simple example, although “out there” in terms of relevance to this crowd, I’m sure: STALLS. You can leave those broodmares out, y’know. And SOME (this is the “out there” part) actually cut costs by using STRAIGHT STALLS whenever they can.
Egad, straight stalls? Yeah, I’m sure many wouldn’t be caught dead with such, not even in that back barn that no one ever sees (so they wouldn’t impact the public impression of a facility that, one must admit, can influence what people are willing to pay). Another example, relevant to pony breeders: do you breed a big mare to a small stallion or a small mare to a big stallion? The latter is far, far more economical, but most still choose the other route. Another example? The foal is crooked legged or the mare has some health issue. Do you choose to cull or to spend some huge sum (sometimes more than the value of the beast) on correcting the problem(s)? WHY? Is the mare or foal that rare? And yet I see breeders do this time after time after time. How many folks out there have even admitted to have produced a cull, much less actually culled it in a business-wise way?
Choice. Your choice–just like it is the (discerning) buyer’s choice whether or not to pay for your choices.
that's prob more than a little true....:winkgrin: one thing that strikes me ( as an outsider to WB breeding and such) is that until and unless the WB's can provide a unifed front to the buyers today,things seem a bit dim....
if we take Germany (which as I recall I can cross from Munich to Bremen by an 8 hour sleeper car) and the USA in comparison...(last I checked it took me 5 hours to get to Memphis and that is still w/in my own state :lol::lol:) then
Germany is a bit like Wales where the fab Welsh Cobs come from...or here in the States, Vermont that held all the wonderful old Morgans or middle TN/Western KY that was reknown for mules production thru the 1960's and even today mules from here are sent to far off military places....how about the great IA and IL based stallions that created the great hitch horses ???
anyway...if you want real competition and real good prices you need a high concentration of animals available in one place at one time...perhaps each state needs WB breeders to stop squabbling between each other and set up real regional/state based sales...or sales websites...
many years ago I offered a free Welsh sales booklet when we ran a big Purina dealership....over 100 people asked to be listed in it....I dunno what sales were ever made but it was quite popular here and people here were amazed that there were so many real welsh for sale across the USA....
Tamara in TNPeeeeoooopppplllle, I’d agree with the OP if she took the time to QUALIFY HER STATEMENTS!!!
What would you like me to qualify??? I dont know how much more qualified I can get.
and if Michealangelo had charged the Holy Father by the hour the Sistine Chapel would still be unpainted…:winkgrin:
Tamara in TN actually I prefer to them to box stalls...I also prefer the EU gestute ideals of communal living in the great well bedded halls....the first barn I designed had more than 21 straight stalls
down the long side…it worked wonderfully…
that's just me...."out here" :winkgrin:
Tamara out in TNAWESOME!!! I just can’t wait to find out what the rest of your customer service is like :rolleyes:
I just LOVE it when someone I would consider doing business with (which I would assume you might think you would get some clients/breedings through COTH) tell me to SHUT MY MOUTH! :no:
Honestly, there are a lot of you here that just leave me shaking my head. Would you behave this way to a Client’s face? Tell them to pay what you tell them and shut their mouth?
It’s a shame that I (who don’t own my own farm so have to pay BOARD on all my horses, including the baby–who is now 4yo) am the only person who is somehow able to produce a really nice horse out of a nice mare and nice stallion that costs less than 10K.
By the way…a LOT of breeders also take in boarders. While I understand that endeavor does not yield much if any of a profit, it basically takes all the “farm costs” that you guys keep rolling into the price of a foal out of the equation. If you can’t make ends meet without charging clients for your water bill and homeowners/farm insurance, perhaps consider taking in some boarders.
Alas…probably no point arguing with a brick wall.
oh…forgot to add, I’m startled by the fact that some of you think that babies should grow up IN STALLS every single day?
Ok, my bad! I forget I should sell all foals for 4500 and take a loss for all my money just because… :lol:
Flash, chill out! You know me, Im not that mean in person.
I do think STF’s breeding costs are pretty well itemized for most of us breeding WBs, asuming all goes well and there is no missed cycles, accidents, illnesses etc.
Ponies are for sure less costly to breed, stud fees are less, they are a much hardier animal. Our ponies are up and running around in minutes and can usually take care of themselves out in a pasture much much earlier than the WB foals and the pony mares certainly eat much less than the WB mares.
edited to Add that I didn’t respond to the original post about having to pay 10K for a weaning because I thought it was a tease!
And for the record, I dont breed heavy anymore. I breed for myself and each foal I breed I do offer for sale, but also have adjusted to keep them here and bring them along to sell under saddle. I dont breed more than the farm can handle anymore. There are to many people who want gold for the price of dirt.
Quite simple, actually:
"The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal produced for the dressage and/or vanity market in an expensive part of the country at an elaborate facility where excess must be accepted ias overhead because it is important to keep up with the Jones’ to illustrate that the foal’s value is the same if not better than the Jones’ is expensive, go look at this:
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm
And then shut your mouth if you are one of we who choose to waste money like this!
:lol:
(And I do realize, STF, that your facility isn’t that elaborate, so actually the qualifications I recommend wouldn’t actually apply to you, but I do think you are something of an anomaly.)
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2605655]
I haven’t read beyond the first few posts because IMO the thread started with such bull (in terms of logic and reasoning), I can’t wait to respond (:winkgrin:).
?
Egad, straight stalls? Yeah, I’m sure many wouldn’t be caught dead with such, not even in that back barn that no one ever sees (so they wouldn’t impact the public impression of a facility that, one must admit, can influence what people are willing to pay). Another example, relevant to pony breeders: do you breed a big mare to a small stallion or a small mare to a big stallion? The latter is far, far more economical, but most still choose the other route. Another example? The foal is crooked legged or the mare has some health issue. Do you choose to cull or to spend some huge sum (sometimes more than the value of the beast) on correcting the problem(s)? WHY? Is the mare or foal that rare? And yet I see breeders do this time after time after time. How many folks out there have even admitted to have produced a cull, much less actually culled it in a business-wise way?
Choice. Your choice–just like it is the (discerning) buyer’s choice whether or not to pay for your choices.[/QUOTE]
I have to ask…probably missing the obvious…but why is it far more economical to breed a small mare to a big stallion. Is your thinking that they can get away with live cover and not AI?
I agree that there are different costs by certain breeds or types of horses but I don’t agree that the costs need to be $9000 more to raise a WB foal. You could raise that same WB for much less if you choose to. Like County says…and I agree…we all make choices on how we do things and what to spend doing them.
Certainly I don’t have to pay $2000 stud fees but then neither do WB breeders necessarily. If you chose to breed to a top studly than that is a risk you’ll take that your foal from Stud Du Jour will come out nice enough to warrant the big price tag. It could come out with crooked legs and not be able to trot nicely at all…it’s a crapshoot…but just because it cost you 10,000 to put your foal on the ground doesn’t mean it’s worth that much.
I am a CPA by the way…I know a little bit about cost accounting and economics. 
No, it’s just a matter of overhead. The standard in pony breeding is to breed a pony stallion to a TB (or WB) mare these days to get a medium or large–and some folks keep quite a few mares in programs like that. But those mares, on average, eat a lot more, need more farrier care, need more shelter, get into more health issues, have more difficulty foaling, etc., etc., etc. than your average, uber-efficient pony mare. Of course, it’s cheaper to grab a pretty OTTB and breed her than it is to seek out nice pony mares, but the trade off is often not worth it, especially for those seeking to produce top of the line foals (mediums and larges close to their height limits). And yet, time after time, it’s done. The reason is because so many breeders own their own stallions–a choice, of course–and so inefficiently model their business plan around that stallion, rather than modelling a business plan and choosing the stallion that fits it.
[NOTE: Please don’t think because I’m saying this that I’m perfect either. Most of us, myself included, take what we have first and then try to make it work out. But again, that illustrates the choices we make.]
For me, the bottom line is that I accept my choices for what they are. I don’t expect anyone to pay for them unless I prove those choices are actually worth paying for. IMO, the opposite is a kind of like an “if you build it, they will come” mentality.
I looked over the cost break down and agree with most of it. Each of us manages our horses a little differently than the next person, so there will be variability in costs, especially when it comes to things like shavings, hay, farrier, and vet bills.
I keep my mares out with big run in sheds most of the year. They come in a month before foaling and some may be in under lights if they are open and I want to start early in a breeding season. Babies live out unless thay have a problem that dictates that they be in. All come into stalls to eat. So I use shavings, but not at a rapid rate.
However, here in FL, bulk shavings now cost $450 per 15 yard load. :eek:
I do not count utilities, water, etc in my costs.
However, my general vet bills are definitely higher than those that STF listed.
But it is in breeding costs where things can really go awry. This year I had a new mare that had what seemed to be a minor uterine infection. Wrong. :no: Five infections, one fungal infection, months of treatments and two breeding attempts later that mare is going to go back to being a riding horse. Vet bills alone were about $8K.
Another mare for some unknown reason declined to become pregnant after three breeding attempts, with an excellent repro vet covering all the bases. This is a relatively young, easy breeding girl who had a very easy foaling. Vet fees — $500 per cycle (frozen semen), semen costs $700 per cycle. Total costs of breeding $3600. No foal coming, no live foal guarantee. She will have a year off. I wish I had had a crystal ball to have been able to see the need to just give her that time off without spending all that $$$$$! :no:
Two years ago I lost a mare one day after she foaled. Stupidly, I had dropped her insurance. The mare had cost me too much to print here 8 months before. Colic surgery (which was unsuccessful) was about $5K. Nurse mare costs were about $5K. Her colt sold for $9K. You do the math. Two months later I lost a filly to a sudden seizure. She was 50% of my foal crop that year. You can only imagine my costs versus income for that year. The heartbreak was free though.:sadsmile:
I totally agree that we cannot expect to make money on every horse that we produce. I also agree that we really need to watch costs as much as possible.
But I also believe that a horse is worth what it sells for, or perhaps more to the person who is buying. My youngsters have with very few exceptions sold for the figure that the board is tossing around (or for more). Even with that, I do not make enough for a sane person to keep breeding, because those bad years (when the losses may be in the tens of thousands) will totally negate the decent ones (when the profit may be a couple thousand).
I can’t believe I just typed this. Sadly it is true.
I had a lengthy conversation with someone who breeds and buys in around 80 foals a year. He sells his horses at 4 or 5 years old, with some competition milage under their belt at that point (the 5 year olds) and he has the most incredibly place, employs several horse-starters etc etc. He reckons he needs to average € 20 000 for a 4.5 year old to break even.
He sells some for € 5000 though… How can he do that? Because some others sell at € 100 000 and for each he sells at € 100 000 he can sell several for € 5000.
And when he sells one for half a million (and he turned down that sum for one of his young stallions who is now sold so he got at least that for him) that horse will pay for a LOT of horses that sell between € 5000 and € 10 000 before this breaks into the profits.
He says selling foals is not worth it for him.
O.K. I see your point…more costly to keep a TB broodmare than a small pony broodmare but then aren’t the large horse stud fees considerably more costly than the pony stud fees. Isn’t it swings and roundabouts (old english saying-sorry)
But we’re not talking profit. We are talking cost. And that is a personal choice.
$120 a month for feed on a weanling is unrealistic for most people. And all babies should, in theory be turned out the majority of the time for proper bone density. You couldn’t give me a weanling that wasn’t turned out more than half the day. And if people were true breeders of quality, one of the qualities should include: Can give birth without a team of vets on site. Just like a Cryptorchid isn’t advisable genetically. We’ve made our own bed with the difficulty getting a mare in foal, keeping a mare in foal, and successfully birthing a foal. And then the animals are kept in glass houses so they can’t learn anything on their own. It shouldn’t be that hard and mostly we cull for the wrong reason’s consistantly. Especially in America.
Your animals or anything, is only worth what someone is willing to pay and fortunately for the WB breeders there seem to be plenty of willing people.
Mary
