This Triple feels different

That was a very good, balanced, refreshing post. I agree completely. I’m glad there are some mature adults in the racing world, otherwise the industry would have died out years ago for lack of interest. I discuss things like this a lot with my neighbor, who is a responsible and successful breeder and owner. Funny enough, I have never been called ignorant or naive, even when we don’t always agree. I agree that a 2 year old CAN race and sometimes does so successfully, but it is debateable if they actually should. I’m not against it per se, but my preference would be to wait. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having differing preferences. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

The data that has been brought up is all well and good, but the races are what are being studied, not the workouts. I asked my neighbor a while ago where the breakdowns happen most, and he said without a doubt it is in training. I also read an article written by a track vet about the issue, and she said she almost quit every day because it hurt her so much to see so many two year olds who haven’t even started racing get pushed to the point of breakdown, then euthanized. If we’re counting the breakdowns per start, these wouldn’t be included, or as one poster said, they would be counted as horses who didn’t break down. Both of which would make the data inaccurate. It really isn’t that hard to understand.

My neighbor lets his horses make the decision for him. If they seem structurally developed, he runs them; if not, he waits. And, surprise, he makes plenty of money that way. He also pays attention to whether or not their joints are developed or not, which is an aspect that has been handily ignored by the bone density touters.

In over 20 years of training race horses I had one break down, it was in a race not in training. I was at the track every morning for 20 years and likely saw well over a million horses train. The amount of those horses who I saw who broke down in training could be counted on my fingers. Anecdotes are nice but not always representative of reality.
As I said above, every trainer let’s the horses make the decisions as to how to proceed with training. The ones who want to train them all the same way and rush rush rush don’t stick around long because it doesn’t work.

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Do you make statements to your neighbor like this quote?

“I have a lot of experience with retired racehorses and I based everything I said on actual experiences. If you can’t deal with the fact that the racing industry has a problem, then I can’t help you.”

You have come in here and poked the proverbial bear by arguing with experienced racing horsewomen using “gut feelings” from experiences with retired thoroughbreds and conversations with neighbors as your basis for reality. You have insinuated that racing horsemen do not care for their horses, which is always a HUGE slap in the face to those of us who dedicate our lives to the well beings of these animals.

Look, I’ll own it that calling you ignorant and naive certainly isn’t the best way to address your misconceptions. Yet you also need a wake up call. Go work for a weekend for one of your trainer friends; I promise it will be eye opening.

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It’s interesting you seem to think that your neighbor is a paragon of good sense–when the method he uses is the same one employed by the majority of racehorse owners and trainers. Yup, that’s how it’s done.

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No, I’ve never said that to the neighbor because he’s always acted like a professional, mature adult. And no, I’m not using just gut feelings and conversations. Ive spent a lot of time on the track as well, and I do help my trainer friends some and my neighbor a lot, as he is an older man and his health is failing. I have seen a lot for myself. I’ve said it a hindred times and I’ll say it again. I am not accusing everyone in the racing industry of not caring for their horses. But acting out the way some of you did against my one initial innocent comment makes a person wonder.

If you’ve spent so much time at the track, what is your anecdotal opinion on breakdowns in training vs racing? Surely you must have one to back up some of the statements you’ve made.

Or is your time at the track just to pick up those OTTBs who’s time at the track is done and they’re moving on to other careers?

Nancy, I really enjoyed your post. And your quoted statement got me thinking of one of my greatest wishes for North American racing. I wish we had no 2 y/o blacktype, with the hope being to minimize the temptation to “push” at the very beginning. I don’t know if my idea is worth the space that it’s typed on, but it seems to me like it would encourage sensibility.

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@PTFsemperfi your misconceptions of horses coming of the track might be because of where you get your horses. I have worked with many OTTBs, would go with my old trainer to the track to learn how to pick them, although I still wouldn’t do it alone, and I have seen one major rehab. The track didn’t cause it though. A certain “rescue” did. So my anecdotal evidence directly contradicts yours. I know people who bred and raced TBs. I know people who can go to the shedrows and pick out solid UL event horses. It doesn’t mean I know as much as people here.

A side thought, I was always taught to look at the war horses who retired sound as that speaks to their soundness and athleticism. Those of you who know more than I please chime in if this is not correct as a generalization.

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I do come from a pretty shabby track area and I will agree that the bad experiences I have come mostly from those tracks. I have had some very sound, incredibly tough war horses and one or two that were not so much. I think too that generally if the horse was tough enough to get through all those races sound, they will probably stay that way.

Where’sMyWhite, I do often go to tracks to get OTTBs but I have been there helping and watching as well. The only two breakdowns I saw happened in the space of a week, both during training. It got me to thinking, especially since the OTTBs I’ve had that were injured were all injured during workouts. That’s when I asked my neighbor what he thought about it. Again, just my point of view, but it seems to me it happens a lot more in training than racing, probably because a horse trains a lot more often than it races.

Two shabby tracks and two break downs does not = “the majority of race trainers are horrible people who don’t care about their horses” and the two break downs does not even come close to negating the research that has posted about racing at 2 vs 3 years of age.

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Once again, I did not ever once say or indicate that “the majority of race trainers are horrible people who don’t care about their horses.” I don’t feel that way and I never said it. Repeatedly accusing me of saying that isn’t going to help make it true. It’s just making a flimsier argument for yourself.

And I don’t know where you got two shabby tracks from. There are far more than two.

Just because I don’t see more breakdowns doesn’t mean they don’t happen. I personally don’t want to see another breakdown, so I don’t go searching them out. The ones I saw were awful and I hear about them periodically from other people around here. I don’t need or want to see them to know they happen.

My point is your posts come off as blanket statements. If it’s not something you would say to your neighbor don’t say it here. One thing I know about COTH is everyone is really helpful and the amount of knowledge here is incredible. So when posters come with their opinions that contradicts research or anecdotes that is the exception rather than the norm, and the poster is claiming it’s the norm it is not well received.

Sorry, I wasn’t more clear before I have a tendency to expect people to read between the lines.

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My original comments I have discussed with my neighbor a lot. My defense to the backlash I wouldn’t say to him, but only because he wouldn’t personally attack me if I say something he disagrees with. I never meant for anything I said to come off as blanket statements. I related my own personal experiences, and that’s an awfully small blanket. I’m glad my experiences are the exceptional if they really are. It really is the norm around here. I live in a very lower level racing and western pleasure type of area. I have to go looking for a good experience if I want one. The horses that fall into my lap are almost always bad experiences. It’s probably because I live around bad tracks and there’s very little aftercare interest here, so it would make me very happy to know from people who live around classier tracks that my experiences aren’t normal. I would think saying it nicely would be a possibility, but maybe not. I love the Thoroughbred horse with all my heart and have never done anything but promote it and try to improve its chances at a good life.

Honestly all you have to do is look online to see the thousands of horses that go through Canter, Finger lakes finest, and new vocations to see that your experience is not the norm. I have had your experience but it wasn’t due to the track. It was the idiot who “rescued” him.

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That is true especially for the rescue type of facilities like New Vocations, but the horse Maya that I talked about actually came off of a Canter listing. I was looking for a good experience that time and went to look at her because I thought she looked nice. What I saw was obviously not a very good experience, but I took her anyway because I felt sorry for her. I’ve had another bad Canter experience as well. I’ve learned not to trust the photos until I’ve seen the actual horse.

I’m posting pictures here so you can see what I’m talking about. The first one is her Canter picture from the track. The second one is not very good, but you can appreciate that it was taken after I got her around the beginning of May. She hadn’t even started shedding out (my horses had already completely shed out at that time), was discolored and underweight, and had bad skin fungus and severe recurrent abscesses in three of her feet and still has ongoing joint issues. The third picture was taken about exactly a year later.

After repeated experiences like this, I’m probably a bit jaded. I shouldn’t be, I’m sure, but it hurts the heart to see things like this again and again.

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You shouldn’t. There are bad apples in every discipline. The racing industry is no worse than the H/J, Dressage Western or Eventing world where you have unscrupulous people.

thats actually not me at all…I grew up near Saratoga and was a major racing fan since the early 80s as a young child, Racing was actually my first horse love and my first exposure to the horse world- I was the kid hanging out in the OTB and making all of my friends in middle school handicap the Travers lol. I didnt even start riding til college. I’ve worked as a groom and exercise rider for several seasons at my little local track as an adult, and hotwalker at belmont/saratoga for 6 months during college. So I have never owned a race horse (by choice, I came close to getting my trainers license and buying some horses- lots of $1500 claimers at my local track so its totally doable for lots of people, but decided that I am too much of a softy for the biz- (I would end up with a property full of lame horses that I cant afford!!! and when a horse I took to the paddock broke down it was really devastating to me…).

I realize that. I take dressage and jump lessons occasionally, but otherwise I’m not involved in the horse showing aspect of equestrianism at all. My passion is transitioning the TBs and letting other people who aren’t extreme stage phobic introverts like I am take them to competitions. I read about the bad stuff and am aware it happens, but I’ve never seen it firsthand. Racing is what I am most involved in, so that’s where I see the dirt.

People across this B.B. will slam you and show no mercy if you come onto the forum and blast the discipline FYI. This forum has been cordial to your posts. Be mindful of that.

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Contrary to popular belief, I don’t slam things I don’t know about. I was completely uninvolved in that whole Marilyn Little hype, for one example, although plenty of people were blasting the sport there. I don’t know much about it, so I never commented. I feel like I was qualified to make the statements I did here and I didn’t get a whole lot of cordiality, especially at first, not like I even slammed the industry. There is something to be said for a little openmindedness, you know.