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Thoughts on Facebook groups and the “everything’s pain” movement?

Horse Care
#36

The irony is how often people get this wrong.

The goal oriented rider who pushes horse into full blown career ending chronic stress injury thinking it’s “lazy” when it’s a suspensory tear brewing up or hock arthritis or bad riding biomechanically breaking down the horse.

And the nervous novice owner who interprets all unwanted behavior as pain and finds backing off riding to be the easiest and safest move. Then goes down a rabbit hole of ineffective holistic cures with an increasingly bored and pent up horse.

I watch people get it wrong on both ends of the spectrum. I’m in a large self board riding club which is a wonderful microcosm of the directions DIY horse owners at all levels of experience sort things out for themselves.

Another category of course is people who ride their horses into chronic strain injuries but are free with the hock injections etc from a relatively young age. They see there is pain, but don’t moderate the workload or change the riding style.

7 Likes
#37

@Ridethroughit23 I love this thread. I’m not in those groups you mention on FB but I think we all agree that brief periods of an ear pin, tension, balking, spooking is normal. They are flight animals. But I doubt a “moment” here and there is what we’re talking about, right?

Leading vets like Sue Dyson showing poor behavior with pro and amateur riders but still showing something is wrong. Sharon May-Davis with her many years of research documenting the problems with C6 C7 - and getting death threats. You know you’re onto something when you’re getting death threats. :cry:

The Eq-Soma Osteology and Anatomy Learning Center women who are composting and dissecting horses donated to them that had a history of poor behavior and finding horrific physical problems.

And yes, we’ve all seen riders who are the issue. Pulling on the reins, slamming on their back, saddles/bridles/bits that pinch. We see poor posture and movement. OMG imagine if every horse could get started correctly, handled and ridden well, lots of turnout and socializing, properly fed, and feet in balance.

I bought a mare 30 years ago who was GRUMPY. Didn’t want grooming, nipped for many reasons, irritated about any leg pressure, and lots of grumpy faces. Some people around me and even vets said “She’s just a mare, just a witch, unwilling, stubborn, just her personality.”

I’d grown up with happy horses and my gut knew better. Finally found a vet who asked if I’d had a dental specialist in her mouth. The local equine vet had done a thorough exam, complete with a speculum and said her teeth were fine. Well, hauled her to Dr. Tom Allen, DVM (RIP Tom) and he found a fractured molar. It had calcified under the gum line - she’d had it for years. We got that tooth out and guess who became the sweetest and most willing horse? Yep. She would do anything for me. I also found a Jack Meagher trained bodyworker and after that tooth was out he was working on her and she stretched down like a dog or cat does in the morning. Right during the bodywork. She had years of mental and physical tension to release. And she did.

I got a mustang a year ago and right from the start there were all kinds of odd behaviors. Didn’t want to be groomed. Walking away if I tried. Nipping at me if I insisted. Even just the flat of my hand stroking him was aversive. I’m still only using the very softest of soft Haas brush and still getting a no. And he bucked lots more often than normal. He also let me know he wasn’t happy if I got on him. In the back of my head was my mare 30 years ago. Something is wrong.

First found a bad tooth and extracted. Then a FEC of 2100, and now a recent PSSM2 dx, and the latest…needs a root canal on an incissor. He started shaking his head and holding his mouth open. Dammit. But, maybe this is IT. Finally. Because as you know trying to figure this stuff out is stressful. It’s exhausting at times.

Now, imagine if from the beginning I just said said he was lazy, stubborn and unwilling and sent him to someone to get a bunch of wet saddle blankets? You know, work it out of him. What if I hadn’t doggedly pursued WHY and WHAT could be causing them?

I still have a good chance at a horse that will give me his heart because I’ll figure this out and get him feeling good. And then…magic carpet rides. That’s my vision. He’s already demonstrated great willingness in many ways. Lunging beautifully with a saddle, noisy bags hanging on the side, a good feel in hand, and runs up to me in the pasture. VERY willing where he is able. I believe he knows I’m trying.

I wrap up with an awesome Ted Talk by Carl Safina:

He wrote the book, Beyond Words, and the middle of page 27 is haunting:
"Even the most informed, logical inferences about animals motivations, emotions, and awareness could wreck your professional prospects. The mere question could. In the 1970’s, a book humbly titled The Question of Animal Awareness caused such an uproar that many behaviorists relegated its author, Donald Griffin, to the fringes of the profession. Griffin was no upstart; he’d been famous for decades as the luminary who’d solved the problem of how bats use sonar to navigate. So he was a bit of a genius, actually. But raising the Question was simply too much for many orthodox colleagues.

Suggesting that other animals can feel anything wasn’t just a conversation stopper; it was a career killer. In 1992, readers of the exclusive journal Science were warned by one academic writer that studying animal perceptions “isn’t a project I’d recommend to anyone without tenure. It was no joke. Seriously.”

That’s our history. It’s time for change and it’s happening.

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#38

Yep - this! I think that a big part of being a horseman is knowing when you need training and when you need a vet

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#39

The more I learn the more I see that happy healthy horses really do not protest much and that work is easy.

The closest analogy I can think of are the couple I know that go on and on with how marriage is hard and it takes work and it takes all of these things. It really doesn’t when you have two healthy communicators with clear expectations who have worked through their own garbage first. In reality, a lot of us enter relationships without those things in place and thus the hard work is required.

It’s kind of awe inspiring to watch how quickly a balanced healthy horse in the right equipment with the right rider can progress. It’s darn near effortless. Like imperfect marriages, many of us take on horses with imbalances if not active pain, muddle through tack fitting, and work to offset spending most of our days in an office chair. It’s work because we are having to overcome so much. Why make it harder by not believing and pursuing pain first is a pretty benign mindset.

In my own life, quite nearly every horse I’ve known with an “attitude”, behavior issues, chronic cranky face, or a bad work ethic ultimately had noticeable pain issues. I’ve lost count of the “spooky thoroughbreds” with horrible ulcers, “rotten pony” with an awfully fitting saddle, “lazy horse” obediently going around on a partially torn suspensory. I retired my own at 11 for reasons that would make someone with the attitude of “we all have a little pain” roll their eyes. I’m now struggling to keep her going just in retirement. If still under saddle I’m sure behaviors would have escalated and been labeled as “evil mare” by many.

I think that the vast majority of horses live with a higher level of physical pain and body discomfort than a human would wish upon themselves. They don’t spend all day sitting at a desk pining to ride and taking the hit of knowing they’ll need an Epsom salt soak for the bum ankle. They are happy just living in fields and getting some attention. We ask them to work and historically have been ignorant and/or uncaring towards their physical needs.

I am thrilled by the broader shift. Worst case someone spends time and resources pursuing physical before behavioral or training. It’s really hard for me to see that as a loss or detrimental thing. Off line IRL many trainers much less owners still don’t know about the basics and push horses with obvious issues.

I remember a time before ulcers and KS were spoken about and a lot more horses suffered as a result. A really fantastic lameness vet recently told me “if we knew all the ways that they silently suffer, I don’t know if we would think it was humane to ride them at all”. That’s a specialist with personal performance animals. When we know better we do better. The bare minimum is believing that an animal that cannot speak may be in pain before we assume they are ear pinning or bucking because it’s fun.

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#40

If work is always easy, then the horse isn’t ever being pushed outside his comfort zone. Fitness and learning only progress when the comfort zone is pushed a bit. Working in ways to strengthen a weak side, gain more suppleness on a stiffer side, is uncomfortable, not easy, and while some horses have a “whatever, I’m game!” attitude, others are a little more “this is weird, can I challenge you a little to not ask me to do it?” even with the best riders.

But getting to that “balanced healthy horse” means doing uncomfortable things, even if it’s just for a few seconds at a time.

The right person starting a horse from a very young age, before even 3 years of “just being a horse” has had time to widen the gap in imbalances between 3 sides, will always have a happier healthier horse all along the way, than the best handler taking a 3yo who has been hanging out in a field all his life with a worsening shoulder imbalance due to unattended to high-low feed. That latter horse has a lot harder work ahead of him to reduce those imbalances, and none of it will be comfortable.

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#41

I have been following this thread from an intelligent sincere new owner trying to problem solve a mare who has shown increasing unhappiness under saddle. It’s turned into the classic “yup, it’s pain diagnosis.” The link here looks wierd but will take you to the thread.

first

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#42

Yup this has been my experience too.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s still work. But it’s the difference between asking them to do something and making them do something. The happy healthy ones only need to be asked.

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#43

Being an athlete is not always comfortable. There is a certain amount of physical discomfort that is a natural part of the journey. Anyone who has ever trained for any kind of athletic endeavor has experienced that. Some horses are more willing than others to participate in this experience - rightly or wrongly.

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#44

I am one data point of experience, but I agree with this. I got my Fjord as a 3 year old in 2020 with very limited trail riding and driving miles (he had been broke that year). I haven’t pushed him with our training, he gets regular chiro/massage…just threw reiki/craniosacral work in the mix because we have a practitioner come out already. All their feedback is all keep doing what we’re doing…no spots of concern, good flexibility and mobility etc.

Training wise, I can tell when something I ask is more work for him, but he still tries and seems pleased when he gets it right. He will get concerned at very-specific-things from time to time, but that is very different than him saying “no” to what is being asked.

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#45

Back in the 80’s, before I went to vet school I had a really nice mare. She was hot hot hot, but her temperament and ground manners were great. I moved to a different barn where the turnout was poor to non-existent and her stall was in a long dark aisle way. Of course in retrospect we can all see where this is going… After being dewormed with an organophosphate (common back then for bots) she started new behavior. She would not let you touch her flank, would kick and squeal, anything past the girth line bothered her. She moved with her tail clamped down between her back legs. I KNEW it was pain. Called out the local big time vet in the area. He examined her and proclaimed it to be behavioral. He told me all I needed to do was ride her down the road 5 miles every day and she would be fine. I was so mad that he would not listen to me. I knew that mare, yes she as hot but she was never temperamental. I hate to admit it, but I knew I wasn’t going to get any more help from him unless I did what he said and proved him wrong, so in January in Minnesota I took her down the road every day. Didn’t press her, just forward down the road. It did nothing for her of course. She didn’t get better (and fortunately not worse either). The vet still dismissed my concerns so I called out a different vet. Our conclusion at the time is that the wormer did something to her. I found literature to support intestinal issues in cattle given the same compound. I also talked to the vet that wormed her and he admitted he had given her a pretty large dose (and said it had never been an issue for him before). So we went forward on that basis. Not much to do as treatment at that point, but I moved her to another barn where she could be out and just let her be. She eventually recovered. Knowing what I know now, I’m not sure if it was the just the wormer because I suspect ulcers might have played a role. But in any case, she did have a physical issue and it was just dismissed and I was dismissed as well.

So it’s nice to see more people pay attention to pain issues.

Do I think all behavioral issues are pain? No, a lot are training issues. But I think we need to rule out pain first.

5 Likes
#46

So I watch my admittedly complicated mare in turnout. There’s nothing she needs to learn in the sense that running free she can do all modes of trot and canter, flying changes, 15 meter circles, roll backs, sliding stops. I watch her in clicker training. She can learn a new behavior that she has no aversion to in about ten minutes, or less, and remember it forever. She does however take a good 20 minutes to warm up under saddle and gets very pissy if pushed too soon, even if she goes on to be super hot later in the ride. There has to be some stiffness or discomfort we’ve never found despite hoof boots saddle fitting fluffy girths and ulcer treatment.

But there’s also an emotional component. She will run more in turnout with a buddy and she will get more forward on the trails if she glimpses another horse. And she will get totally pissy and refuse to go if the arena is crowded especially with what she thinks are bad vibe horses (she’s not wrong).

Once a year when she goes to pasture she does a perfect passage for about 20 seconds

I freely admit that my big mistakes trying to ride through her behaviour at the start of our journey taught her some unwanted behavior and that she can completely remember every moment of that.

Discomfort can be due to tactless riding, or the horse lacking balance, or tack pain, or hoof pain, or body pain.

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#47

What a story and it’s so interesting that you feel it probably was intestinal inflammation and we all know how uncomfortable that can be. Do you recall noticing gas? Manure changes?

And yes, so many issues ARE training. Having a well behaved and mannered horse MOST OFTEN requires a horse that is handled OFTEN. Right? And handled well. And taught to deal with pressure and self regulate. By someone firm and fair. Who creates confidence.

No doubt.

3 Likes
#48

I’ll second this. I’ve been dealing with chronic soundness issues lately with my FEI horse, chasing one thing only to find there’s something else, too. Now this is a nice, hot, spicy horse who loves to work, and was pretty easy to get to FEI (competed successfully through I1, schooling all the GP). When the soundness issues started to creep in, things got physically hard for her, but since she was never lame, I assumed it was the work that was hard, and not that she was unsound.

(I’m going to ~ yadda yadda yadda ~ over the long story, so TL/DR, eventually it got to a point where I called the vet out since there was clearly something not right, and we found mild KS, NPA in the hind feet, bilateral PSD, now sore stifles… she was a hot mess, and we’d address one issue only to find another a few months later. Hopefully that’s all there is now and we can move on with our lives.)

Now that we’re (hopefully) narrowing in more and more on all the little things that have been bothering her, every time we fix something I’m amazed how much easier things are now that she’s in less and less pain. Most recently, we injected the stifles and for the first time in almost 2 years, I feel like I have my horse back. I can’t believe how easy everything is for her now (admittedly she’s out of shape so not back in full work, but the little things like lateral work, cantering straight, a few steps of collected canter, that had been hard right before the injections are easy again). I almost cried after I rode her post-stifle injections because it made me realize the work and rehab we’ve been doing was never actually hard, she was just hurting to one degree or another. (And this is a horse that was given the green light to go back to work as perfectly sound after PSD rehab, but she just felt “not right” to me so I kept digging and found the stifles.)

Admittedly, this is a very well/purpose-bred warmblood, not a (for example) quarter horse being asked to do FEI dressage, so the work should be easy for her. It may be easier or harder depending on how well suited your horse is for your discipline of choice and level of work.

6 Likes
#49

I mean, just watch a beginner handle a horse for a year without good instruction.

There is no horse alive that will be the same horse at the end of that than the beginning. Dollars to doughnuts even my saintly Old Man will have learned how to say “no” to a boatload of basic stuff in that time period, and only because he was allowed to say it.

Here’s an example - back when Old Man was 3 and i hadnt the slightest idea what i was doing, he decided he was going to start cow kicking when being girthed. Someone experienced at the barn saw him do it, and said “let me help”. Horse tried to cow kick, experienced person open handed slapped him in the belly HARD once as a response, with an instantaneous reaction time. That horse was never girthy ever again, in 20 years since then. Not even an ear pin or tail swish, or a dirty look. He was doing that because he could, and because I was not a good handler/rider/leader.

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#50

I get to watch newbies without enough supervision go downhill with their bargain horses quite often at my self care club barn. It’s a real education just watching. Unfortunately once the horse learns a behavior they remember it.

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#51

I agree, BUT, they can still show it in their ears, eyes, nose, mouth, that some of the work is hard. Someone taking that particular second in time and using it to declare there’s something wrong, has their head in the sand.

Making physical changes is uncomfortable, no ifs ands or buts about that, I think most would agree. And while as a human we can be told to “grin and bear it” and “smile, it makes it easier” we can’t tell a horse that, they wear their feelings right out in the open.

Yes, the highly trainable ones have an innate desire to please, regardless, but while they won’t outright balk at something they find hard, they will and do let it be known that it’s not comfortable, at least some of the time. Nothing about training is easy. It’s just easIER for some horses, for a lot of reasons, both man-made, and their genetics.

3 Likes
#52

I will requote and bold a key part

This.

I will also say that growing up riding school horses unfortunately normalized that “things are hard”. It wasn’t until I had the opportunity to sit on schoolmasters and properly, professionally started babies, or relatively clean slated greenies that I started to realize it doesn’t need to be.

4 Likes
#53

Yup. I know a horse who could do all the GP moves but could never get the tempis. Was never “lame” but eventually one of the best lameness vets in the area looked at it and suggested a minor treatment. And after that the tempis were no issue. And it’s not a purpose bred WB either.

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#54

I have seen this trend but I think it’s because we know more and people who aren’t that educated have access to the information. Like someone else stated I wish I knew now with one of my horses as a kid.

I do think some people are inclined to blame pain before training because a training issue requires one to self reflect. Many people don’t like doing that.

6 Likes
#55

No gas noted, she wasn’t bloated either. I can’t swear the manure was completely normal, it was so long ago. But not got grossly abnormal (like diarrhea though) as I would have noted that.

1 Like

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