I have been following this thread from an intelligent sincere new owner trying to problem solve a mare who has shown increasing unhappiness under saddle. It’s turned into the classic “yup, it’s pain diagnosis.” The link here looks wierd but will take you to the thread.
1 Like
Yup this has been my experience too.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s still work. But it’s the difference between asking them to do something and making them do something. The happy healthy ones only need to be asked.
3 Likes
Being an athlete is not always comfortable. There is a certain amount of physical discomfort that is a natural part of the journey. Anyone who has ever trained for any kind of athletic endeavor has experienced that. Some horses are more willing than others to participate in this experience - rightly or wrongly.
6 Likes
I am one data point of experience, but I agree with this. I got my Fjord as a 3 year old in 2020 with very limited trail riding and driving miles (he had been broke that year). I haven’t pushed him with our training, he gets regular chiro/massage…just threw reiki/craniosacral work in the mix because we have a practitioner come out already. All their feedback is all keep doing what we’re doing…no spots of concern, good flexibility and mobility etc.
Training wise, I can tell when something I ask is more work for him, but he still tries and seems pleased when he gets it right. He will get concerned at very-specific-things from time to time, but that is very different than him saying “no” to what is being asked.
6 Likes
Back in the 80’s, before I went to vet school I had a really nice mare. She was hot hot hot, but her temperament and ground manners were great. I moved to a different barn where the turnout was poor to non-existent and her stall was in a long dark aisle way. Of course in retrospect we can all see where this is going… After being dewormed with an organophosphate (common back then for bots) she started new behavior. She would not let you touch her flank, would kick and squeal, anything past the girth line bothered her. She moved with her tail clamped down between her back legs. I KNEW it was pain. Called out the local big time vet in the area. He examined her and proclaimed it to be behavioral. He told me all I needed to do was ride her down the road 5 miles every day and she would be fine. I was so mad that he would not listen to me. I knew that mare, yes she as hot but she was never temperamental. I hate to admit it, but I knew I wasn’t going to get any more help from him unless I did what he said and proved him wrong, so in January in Minnesota I took her down the road every day. Didn’t press her, just forward down the road. It did nothing for her of course. She didn’t get better (and fortunately not worse either). The vet still dismissed my concerns so I called out a different vet. Our conclusion at the time is that the wormer did something to her. I found literature to support intestinal issues in cattle given the same compound. I also talked to the vet that wormed her and he admitted he had given her a pretty large dose (and said it had never been an issue for him before). So we went forward on that basis. Not much to do as treatment at that point, but I moved her to another barn where she could be out and just let her be. She eventually recovered. Knowing what I know now, I’m not sure if it was the just the wormer because I suspect ulcers might have played a role. But in any case, she did have a physical issue and it was just dismissed and I was dismissed as well.
So it’s nice to see more people pay attention to pain issues.
Do I think all behavioral issues are pain? No, a lot are training issues. But I think we need to rule out pain first.
5 Likes
So I watch my admittedly complicated mare in turnout. There’s nothing she needs to learn in the sense that running free she can do all modes of trot and canter, flying changes, 15 meter circles, roll backs, sliding stops. I watch her in clicker training. She can learn a new behavior that she has no aversion to in about ten minutes, or less, and remember it forever. She does however take a good 20 minutes to warm up under saddle and gets very pissy if pushed too soon, even if she goes on to be super hot later in the ride. There has to be some stiffness or discomfort we’ve never found despite hoof boots saddle fitting fluffy girths and ulcer treatment.
But there’s also an emotional component. She will run more in turnout with a buddy and she will get more forward on the trails if she glimpses another horse. And she will get totally pissy and refuse to go if the arena is crowded especially with what she thinks are bad vibe horses (she’s not wrong).
Once a year when she goes to pasture she does a perfect passage for about 20 seconds
I freely admit that my big mistakes trying to ride through her behaviour at the start of our journey taught her some unwanted behavior and that she can completely remember every moment of that.
Discomfort can be due to tactless riding, or the horse lacking balance, or tack pain, or hoof pain, or body pain.
8 Likes
What a story and it’s so interesting that you feel it probably was intestinal inflammation and we all know how uncomfortable that can be. Do you recall noticing gas? Manure changes?
And yes, so many issues ARE training. Having a well behaved and mannered horse MOST OFTEN requires a horse that is handled OFTEN. Right? And handled well. And taught to deal with pressure and self regulate. By someone firm and fair. Who creates confidence.
No doubt.
3 Likes
I’ll second this. I’ve been dealing with chronic soundness issues lately with my FEI horse, chasing one thing only to find there’s something else, too. Now this is a nice, hot, spicy horse who loves to work, and was pretty easy to get to FEI (competed successfully through I1, schooling all the GP). When the soundness issues started to creep in, things got physically hard for her, but since she was never lame, I assumed it was the work that was hard, and not that she was unsound.
(I’m going to ~ yadda yadda yadda ~ over the long story, so TL/DR, eventually it got to a point where I called the vet out since there was clearly something not right, and we found mild KS, NPA in the hind feet, bilateral PSD, now sore stifles… she was a hot mess, and we’d address one issue only to find another a few months later. Hopefully that’s all there is now and we can move on with our lives.)
Now that we’re (hopefully) narrowing in more and more on all the little things that have been bothering her, every time we fix something I’m amazed how much easier things are now that she’s in less and less pain. Most recently, we injected the stifles and for the first time in almost 2 years, I feel like I have my horse back. I can’t believe how easy everything is for her now (admittedly she’s out of shape so not back in full work, but the little things like lateral work, cantering straight, a few steps of collected canter, that had been hard right before the injections are easy again). I almost cried after I rode her post-stifle injections because it made me realize the work and rehab we’ve been doing was never actually hard, she was just hurting to one degree or another. (And this is a horse that was given the green light to go back to work as perfectly sound after PSD rehab, but she just felt “not right” to me so I kept digging and found the stifles.)
Admittedly, this is a very well/purpose-bred warmblood, not a (for example) quarter horse being asked to do FEI dressage, so the work should be easy for her. It may be easier or harder depending on how well suited your horse is for your discipline of choice and level of work.
6 Likes
I mean, just watch a beginner handle a horse for a year without good instruction.
There is no horse alive that will be the same horse at the end of that than the beginning. Dollars to doughnuts even my saintly Old Man will have learned how to say “no” to a boatload of basic stuff in that time period, and only because he was allowed to say it.
Here’s an example - back when Old Man was 3 and i hadnt the slightest idea what i was doing, he decided he was going to start cow kicking when being girthed. Someone experienced at the barn saw him do it, and said “let me help”. Horse tried to cow kick, experienced person open handed slapped him in the belly HARD once as a response, with an instantaneous reaction time. That horse was never girthy ever again, in 20 years since then. Not even an ear pin or tail swish, or a dirty look. He was doing that because he could, and because I was not a good handler/rider/leader.
1 Like
I get to watch newbies without enough supervision go downhill with their bargain horses quite often at my self care club barn. It’s a real education just watching. Unfortunately once the horse learns a behavior they remember it.
3 Likes
I agree, BUT, they can still show it in their ears, eyes, nose, mouth, that some of the work is hard. Someone taking that particular second in time and using it to declare there’s something wrong, has their head in the sand.
Making physical changes is uncomfortable, no ifs ands or buts about that, I think most would agree. And while as a human we can be told to “grin and bear it” and “smile, it makes it easier” we can’t tell a horse that, they wear their feelings right out in the open.
Yes, the highly trainable ones have an innate desire to please, regardless, but while they won’t outright balk at something they find hard, they will and do let it be known that it’s not comfortable, at least some of the time. Nothing about training is easy. It’s just easIER for some horses, for a lot of reasons, both man-made, and their genetics.
3 Likes
I will requote and bold a key part
This.
I will also say that growing up riding school horses unfortunately normalized that “things are hard”. It wasn’t until I had the opportunity to sit on schoolmasters and properly, professionally started babies, or relatively clean slated greenies that I started to realize it doesn’t need to be.
4 Likes
Yup. I know a horse who could do all the GP moves but could never get the tempis. Was never “lame” but eventually one of the best lameness vets in the area looked at it and suggested a minor treatment. And after that the tempis were no issue. And it’s not a purpose bred WB either.
3 Likes
I have seen this trend but I think it’s because we know more and people who aren’t that educated have access to the information. Like someone else stated I wish I knew now with one of my horses as a kid.
I do think some people are inclined to blame pain before training because a training issue requires one to self reflect. Many people don’t like doing that.
6 Likes
No gas noted, she wasn’t bloated either. I can’t swear the manure was completely normal, it was so long ago. But not got grossly abnormal (like diarrhea though) as I would have noted that.
1 Like
Can I add in not enough work to the cause of behavioural issues? An hour a day is not working a horse hard and many are underemployed and bored with repetitive work. Keeping their mind fresh is as important as keeping their body healthy.
One of the joys of life is riding a trail with a horse who loves being out on a trail and is having as much fun as I am.
8 Likes
100% agree with this. Horsie is so much better on day #2 of work than day #1 because “too much gas in the tank” can cloud some of her better judgement lol
1 Like
Let’s add though, that not enough work during the week and then a 3 hour ride on Saturdays is unfair to the horse. They have to be fit enough for what you’re asking them to do, and you can dang-well expect resistance if they’re not. That’s a no-brainer to me, but not to most it seems.
6 Likes
There are a fair bit of Amish in my area and I can’t recall, but I think it was my vet that told me the story. A younger Amish guy kept having soundness/soreness issues with his horse. The horse basically sat all week then did something like two 20 or 30 mile round trip on the weekends to see the guys girlfriend. Mystery solved!
3 Likes
For work, it’s really less about how much forced work they’re getting, and more about how much turnout they’re getting, and in what size fields with what kind of buddies.
Horses don’t care if they work. They DO care that they get to move in ways of their choosing. A horse is sounder and happier if he’s turned out full time in no work, than turned out 1 hour a day with 3 hours of work. It’s the same with people. 30-60 minutes in the gym doesn’t make up for 9 hours of sitting. But spend more time standing in front of your computer, doing something movement-wise instead of parking in front of the TV at night, and 20-30 minutes of structured exercise does SO much more to improve physical and mental health.
Horses, and people are meant to move way more than many are allowed to, and that contributes to atrophy and stiffness
6 Likes
