So the Munchausen by Clinician crowd like to invent subclinical thrush, laminitis, etc that you can’t see or diagnose but is making your horse lame even if he isn’t lame. It’s an old move. Take something real and scary, invent a subclinical firm and treat the hell out of something that was never there in the first place
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It’s fascinating 
that the difference was explained to me five decades ago, when I was a child.
The basic difference between the two has been known for ages by experienced horsepeople.
Thankfully many of us had mentors, that had experience with horses, of whom we could ask questions, (without charge I may add) and not be fed nonsense in response.
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SEVEN YEARS??!! My God - the man is Epona’s gift to all things equine!!! SEVEN WHOLE YEARS??!! I am going on 30 years now - does that make me a Super Extra Speshul Magikkel Horse Whispery GoAwayNow Pony Boy Big Name Trainer?? Different breeds and disciplines!! Breeding! Foaling!
I bow to the Seven Year Master of Equus!!!
…party on, Garth! 
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Right on.
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I don’t understand why some people don’t just learn the basics of horse care and how to ride, as the majority of people who enjoy horses do. It’s challenging and fun enough for the majority of riders.
I wish people would confine this woo-woo cultist stuff to areas of their lives where animals weren’t involved. The animal never seems to benefit. Munchausen by Clinician indeed.
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But any good horse person has a broad knowledge base. Folks who limit their participation to just riding end up in trouble too, naive full boarders who can’t see trouble brewing.
As a person doing self board, it’s up to me to understand everything. I need a working knowledge of nutrition and first aid. I learned to rasp between trims. I have stretches and inhand and ground work I do. I know basic first aid and can wrap a hoof abscess and deal with colic. Etc.
All these areas of horse care have a range of protocols to choose from. You can go old school cowboy, you can go current best practices, you can go unproven new age snake oil, you can go ignorant deer in the headlights newbie who doesn’t see a problem until horse is critically ill.
And this range of choice exists right down to what topical wound spray you have in your tack box, up to how your saddle fits and if your horse is getting laminitis from obesity because you got sold the idea they need 24/7 hay. The good trimming rabbit hole is bottomless not least because there are so many self taught practitioners out there some doing bad work.
Etc. Horses are crippled every year because owners don’t research these things enough.
So the people that follow fake trainers have the right impulse to expand their knowledge base. They just don’t have enough of a knowledge base to evaluate what they are being told. Probably yes they also tend towards new age woo in their own health care too.
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I guess we have different ideas about what the basics of horse care knowledge entail. The basics of horse care, in my opinion require quite a bit of effort on an owner/rider’s part. The anatomy and physiology of the horse is quite an extensive read. Basic horse care, to me, means knowledge of conditions and diseases of the horse, hoof care, feeding, grooming, etc… A horseperson needs to learn the basics and follow up with questions for their Vet, and farrier other people with actual credentials.
A horse owner with what I consider a basic understanding of horse care would be unlikely to fall for this woo- woo.
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Ok I misunderstood what you were saying!
Yes. These practitioners appeal to people who don’t understand basics of horse care.
We had a niche hay dealer selling 300 lb bales to net in the stall. Her pitch was these were “tested low sugar” and horse could have natural 24/7 forage. Well, these bales were low sugar because they were alfalfa mix, and the horses were easy keepers, and they were just glued to the spot eating and got obese and showed clinical symptoms of metabolic syndrome. I think one went laminitic. They were going through at least 30 lbs a day.
Also this hay came at a huge premium, almost twice the price of square bakes, despite the fact that giant bales tend to sell for half the price of square bales. She also sourced organic beet pulp at twice the price of regular, in burlap bags. And didn’t believe in any VM supplements.
I was surprised that relatively intelligent horse owners bought into this (until their horses had very obvious symptoms). The hay dealer did have that rather intense slightly hostile and mangled facts self presentation that made me want to have nothing to do with her but is catnip to some women
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I would have agreed with you on this in regards to THW, and more recently, I absolutely DO believe this is the case now and why access has become so secretive and elusive. What they are selling now is starkly different from what was sold one year ago, even down to the marketing itself. Example: last year Celeste made no claim to having classical knowledge, today, her website spouts having a Classical foundation.
I did fall for it a year ago, as many equestrians I know who also fell for it, who do have considerable knowledge. But, most everyone I know began seeing through the smoke and mirrors last spring, and stopped following altogether by mid summer.
At first, the work wasn’t marketed as woo, originally, it was marketed as a Structural Integration bodyworker who wanted to share some easy to learn effective postural exercises to supplement whatever training one was already doing. That was the draw.
How it evolved into the madness it is now? I have no idea, but it’s akin to a virus, and the only antidote is to expand one’s knowledge base with well researched, credible information. Those who want to be spoon fed magical solutions will likely continue paying huge sums of money with the distant promise that one day they too will have a magical soul connection with their horse, and when that doesn’t work, they will latch onto to the next new thing.
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Interesting evolution. That makes sense why a few smart people got initially involved
Sometimes these kinds of gurus are very intentional and lure folks in then up the ante. Other times these gurus are in fact a bit delusional once you scratch the surface and they start making up crap.
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In hindsight, everything seems very calculated and intentional. She still seems to be trying to leapfrog onto any professional who will give her the time of day, drums up a bunch of fuss name dropping, and then leaping on to the next.
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MLM strategy I think. Work your online presence and make links and posts with any “influencer” who will tolerate you.
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Why don’t they just use Navicular syndrome…it checks almost all of the boxes already. LOL
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Too easy to diagnose via radiograph, you need something more elusive and easy to fabricate into (common results of poor riding practices) symptoms.
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Also subclinical navicular syndrome is already hijacked by guru barefoot trimmers. She needed new territory.
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I stand corrected! LOL
On my eggbars nonetheless
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The Dunning Krueger effect is alive and well on both sides of the aisle: you have professionals who think their reinvention of Training Level is the secret that everyone has been missing for lo these past 1000 years, and you have the amateur clients who couldn’t ride a golf cart with the door shut to save their lives, or in general find their ass with both hands if you gave them an actual seeing eye dog to assist.
When I was a professional, the primary cause of my eventual flaming burnout was the absolute blindness of amateurs to which trainers were actually competent and which were complete idiots at best and abusive a-holes at worst.
I have seen clients see it all: people flying off their horses for the first time in years and landing in the actual hospital (after being told to try getting up when their hip is broken); horses coming back from training rides with bloody legs “because they got in an argument in the corner and he tried to kick the arena fence down”; the horse still going, after a year off the track in “full training”, like it raced fkn yesterday; the trainer scoring sub 50 at Grand Prix multiple times with no major disobediences, just the fact that they generally described the GP pattern in a 2nd level balance; listening to “your horse has a mack truck in its mouth just let the bit do the training”; the horse that was given to the next great thing somehow ending up in a kill pen somewhere not long after; taking all of their training advice from the 73 year old Nuño disciple who refused to swing a leg over it; the list goes on and on.
There was even the time when a video of one of the lessons with one of the trainers somehow made it onto COTH and pretty much all of COTH was like “…uhhhh, WTAF is going here, this is no bueno…”. Briefly I had hope that since miracles of miracles COTH was actually united in agreement on something and that was how bad this lesson was, that maybe the 2 + 2 bell would ring four, but STILL the trainer Kool aid was stronger.
It was like living in the twilight zone of constant gaslightery to see all these clients SEE ALL OF THIS and not put two and two together. There is nothing that some of these amateurs can see that would actually get them to conclude that their chosen idiot isn’t the second coming of Christ.
They have the money to pursue quality education, based on their professional careers they theoretically should have the brain cells, it’s literally RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACE, and still you can ask them “Hey do you want to spend $800 for a zoom lesson about releasing the braciowtf or do you want to spend $300 to take a clinic with Anne Gribbons” and STILL they will be like “
I want to fly out to the PNW to train with Celeste in person !! Oh btw your training bill is going to be late because I just spent $950 on gastroguard and magnesium that the animal communicator suggested.”
I gave up hoping any of them would ever see sense long ago and now focus my attention on real estate law.
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How frustrating it must be for a professional in the internet age.
I was lucky to have had my education from breeders, and producers of show horses, when I was young, before the internet was a thing.
Of course you should never stop learning, but I think having the basics down makes it easier to choose your books wisely and to quickly spot the pretenders.
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This thread. Wow.
It made for interesting reading.
@endlessclimb - your horse looks adorable. Even with balloons on its head.
@meupatdoes - you had several SPOT ON posts about so much that is simply MIND BOGGLING when it comes to the horse industry, and ‘training’ and ‘programs’ that people pay lots of money for.
I don’t know.
Threads like these make me grateful for my highly qualified and well respected:
Trainer
Vet
Farrier
As for why so many adult ammy women go looking for excuses to explain why we are on the struggle bus… and then enthusiastically buy into convenient programs that keep you walking forever, or spending stupid money on saddle after saddle…
Psssst. It’s ok to be on the struggle bus. Just own it. And then ride more. Add a few pads to your saddle if needed. But… just ride more. Sympathetically. For sure. But… hours in the saddle matter. Getting your horse going forward matters. Cantering… and occasionally hand galloping while partially out of the saddle? Yup. If you can’t handle that, you are kinda limited… and not able to do much beyond trail riding and hacking. That’s the truth.
I see a few adult ammys at the barn where I currently have a horse in training who make a HUGE DEAL out of little things. They get others to take video. Then they post on social media about their horse’s ‘progress’, which is fine… but… a little bit much. But whatever. That’s ok. We are friendly, I’ll give their post a like and be positive.
But… some of these same people also really seem to only ride their horses 3 days a week. If that. And… those often seem to be low intensity rides.
There is no “majgikal” program that will make you achieve much “progress” if that is what you are doing. And what you are doing is not “dressage.” There is nothing wrong with having a relaxed plan for you and your horse… etc… trail riding and hacking and just loving your horse and only riding a little? That’s all awesome. Nothing wrong with any of that. But please realize that it’s silly to claim you are “rehabbing” or “retraining” or “working so hard to progress up the levels” or much of anything else along these lines, if you are a low level adult ammy who is only riding three days a week, and only occasionally taking walking lessons on your horse with some weird person who has no discernible record in recognized competition.
For the record… I too am an adult ammy. I too have ridden on the struggle bus at times for many reasons. It’s fine. No one cares. Just… realize if you want yourself or your horse to make REAL progress, you need to either spend money and put your horse into REAL TRAINING with someone competent who is achieving key training milestones on the horse, or you need to start riding more intensely, 5-6 days a week, and take real lessons with qualified pros, who make you do things on the horse that make you break a sweat or huff and puff a little.
This isn’t rocket science. Or neuro psychology. Or majgikal. Many disciplines of riding? They are actually a sport. Even dressage… it’s a sport.
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Riding is in fact one of the high skill high risk high cost sports. To do it well you have to be fit, brave, disciplined and goal oriented. However, because of the animal big pet component, it attracts a number of people who are unfit, timid, and unathletic. Especially when going back to a childhood dream of ponies.
Among pro jumpers and eventers there’s a lot of crossover with downhill skiing at least around here with easily accessible day skiing. But the ammies I have in mind would never dream of taking up any other high speed high risk sport like skiing or white water kayak or mountain biking etc.
So they end up in horses with absolutely no physicality or even an idea how to get there. They might be happy to just walk trail ride most of the time but because they have no physical skills their horses go sour and start running them over.
So these ammies start looking for answers in the discourses that make sense to them and that they use with humans. Psycho therapy and relational ideas, massage, very quiet groundwork that they can manage. Woo. Supplements.
It’s really hard to longe a stroppy horse when you don’t have the coordination to longe any horse effectively and safely so free liberty ground work starts to look really attractive.
I’m kind of in the middle. I don’t do other high risk high speed sports, when I didnt have horses I did slow and flat things like hiking an ocean kayaking and swimming laps and fitness classes and belly dancing and weight room. But at least I kept fit. I also rode enough as a kid to understand the physicality of riding. But I recognized then and now that I never had the courage or the stamina to be a horse pro.
As an adult I’ve enjoyed catching up on all the new ideas about ground work and barefoot trim and nutrition etc. But at least I have a common sense understanding of human nutrition to scaffold the much simpler questions of horse nutrition and a strong scepticism about trendy supplements and fads.
Anyhow the fact is that a certain subset of folks, mostly women, get into horses without the fitness or athletic or proprioception to ride very well. They get into struggles with their horses and they turn to more familiar discourses about relationship and etc because that seems more achievable.
Probably they’d all be most helped by signing up for 6 months of CrossFit training and longe lessons without stirrups 
but this would be way out of their physical comfort zone and maybe ability.
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