Well, now I don’t know what to believe lol!
Thanks for commenting. I realize it’s possible for humans and horses to absorb and experience things differently, but I don’t see a mechanistic way for absorption of this product to be that different.
Some horses don’t care about it going on, either.
Just because I say something is fine for me doesn’t mean it’s fine for you. We all experience things differently.
1 Like
Oh of course there’s plenty of individual variation to consider (I was partly making a joke with that comment). Plus there are a bunch of different ways to apply it that would factor in (as evidenced in this thread - wet vs. dry, do you apply it to a spot and really get it in there with the applicator vs. applying it to your hands or a brush and using a broad application approach). I work in clinical trials so I get that there are always plenty of sources of variation, and often one’s we don’t know we don’t know! 
But if it’s a physical characteristic of the substance that is eliciting a creepy crawly feeling, it seems odd that to have so much variation, since our skin (between us and horses, and between horses themselves) would react so differently to it. I’ll have to do more testing with my own horse to see what exactly she is reacting to.
1 Like
my horse doesn’t like it either, he also doesn’t like frontline spray. I’ve always thought it was the drippy sensation he objects to.
1 Like
Horses have a haircoat that we do not.
Horses are wired to perceive flies and other insects landing on their skin and twitch them off. An insect that is not easily dissuaded–like a persistent horse fly–can garner a response that has the potential to get pretty explosive.
To assume that humans and horses would have a similar experience with this sort of thing is probably wildly incorrect.
1 Like
My more reactive horses will kick out at water drips on their belly during a bath, before you can fully wet them.
I’ve completely rid myself of the “drip kicking” from the spot on by running the stiff brush in the direction of hair growth once or twice.
The horses will do the same thing with spray on liniment, if you don’t rub it around a little.
I guess I disagree. Haircoat, sure, but if you are getting this on the skin (which you’re supposed to), it’s on the skin, not on the top of the coat. If you’re just applying it to the top of the hair, then yes, it’s different from how it would sit on our skin. Unless there’s something about how it sits or slides on the hair shaft (the significance of which for this situation I would question).
I would argue that our skin is also extremely sensitive to tactile stimuli - humans are also “wired” to perceive bugs and other threats on our skin. If I have a persist bug that could bite or sting me on my skin that I can’t shake off, I am also likely to react explosively. We don’t have the same twitching muscles, but I would argue the sensations we experience are not that different. Mechanoreceptors in skin are very, very conserved across species (especially mammals).
We are different species, for sure, but as with most biological characteristics, we are more similar than different. That’s why we test our medicines on other mammals first. Indeed, it is mandatory at multiple steps of drug development. Perhaps more relevant - it’s also why a lot of what we know about our biology and behavior comes from decades of sensory and behavioral experiments on a variety of animals.
I’m not trying to argue with you, but my perspective as a scientist is that generally it’s safe to assume we experience most of our senses (vision being a notable exception, with dramatic differences between prey and predators) such as air, sounds, temperature, and a wide variety of tactile stimuli more similarly than differently. Until it’s been demonstrated that we experience physical stimuli differently, I would assume we don’t.
If I had to guess, I would posit that individual variation is probably the bigger factor here. Some people love cold plunges, others wouldn’t be caught dead in a cold pool. Some horses hate the feeling of water dripping, others could not care less. Some humans’ and horses’ skin is very reactive to chemicals, others never have a reaction no matter what ingredients are applied.
That being said, I’m ok living with the mystery. Not everything has an obvious answer, and it’s probably a mix of a few things.
2 Likes
Yes, we’ll have to agree to disagree, that’s clear. But I think you’re doing a disservice to horses by assuming your experience is their experience.
Interesting perspective. I would posit that it’s actually a good thing - I would assume that things that I find disagreeable, unpleasant, or painful are probably similarly disagreeable, unpleasant, or painful for the horse. It would be silly to assume - as a starting point - that things I find noxious are fine for my horse. They might be - i.e., we might experience things differently, but that would not be my starting point.
Obviously, in the face of evidence, one should update their knowledge on how - and on what variables - we are the same or different.
(Not trying to debate, I just find our differences here somewhat surprising. )
3 Likes
You’re trying to say “I don’t find this potentially irritating stimuli irritating, so my horse should not find it irritating, either.” That’s ridiculous. You can’t even do that in a population of HUMANS much less cross species.
Just because you tolerate fluorescent lights and loud noises does not mean others don’t find those things intolerable.
Just because you find florescent lights and loud noises intolerable does not mean others have those same issues.
Making assumptions on how anyone will respond based on your own response is a bias.
Look to the individual to see how they respond instead.
You said:
How about you believe the horse. Does the horse have a problem with the application? No? Great, it doesn’t bother them. Yes? It bothers them in some way. How much? How big is their response?
That is an overly simplistic and reductionist interpretation, and not what I’m trying to say. I’m not sure where the miscommunication is but there is definitely some happening here.
No one is saying that, because I don’t find x irritating, my horse won’t either. I’m saying that, if I don’t know how my horse will react to x, I should use my prior knowledge of horses, myself, my horse in particular, and biology generally to make an educated guess. From there, I should fine tune my understanding and update my knowledge.
I think I was pretty clear that there is a lot of room for cross-species and within-species variation.
I think we can all agree that it’s not practical or reasonable to go through life starting from a place of “I have no idea how this animal will react to xyz.” I should use my prior knowledge and experiences - for myself, prior horses, and my horse in particular - to guide my future behaviors. I cannot envision another logical way to approach life.
Of course. No one (certainly not me) is arguing with you here. I guess I don’t understand why you seem to disagree that the logical place to start when trying something new is to use the information you have from prior experiences to guide your actions. Then, when you have more information, you update your knowledge. Seeing how the horse in front of me responds, and then updating my knowledge about that situation, is a logical thing to do.
[quote=“Simkie, post:30, topic:794809, full:true”]
You said:
I said above - this was meant to be a funny/tongue in cheek comment about individual differences. Clearly not perceived that way by all.
No one is arguing with you about believing the horse. Clearly my horse doesn’t like when I apply the spot treatments. What I’m trying to figure out is why - is it the substance itself? Or how I apply it (by applying it to each spot with the applicator)? If it’s the substance itself reacting on skin, I probably won’t use it again. If it’s how I’m applying it, then I can probably keep using it with a different application method (and I’ll be trying some of the things suggested in this thread).
I’m a little surprised by how argumentative you are about this. I’m happy to explain my thinking, but I don’t know that I want to keep up this discourse. It is neither pleasant, nor I suspect helpful to anyone else on the board.
5 Likes
And I feel the same way 
As I said earlier–we agree to disagree.
We’re in heavy tick country. 
My horse hates the Equispot applicator. If I use scissors to round off the sharp plastic edges on the tip, she’s better about it. For super sensitive areas I apply with a fingertip.
How often do you need to reapply the spot on treatments?
Label directions state to reapply every two weeks.
https://www.farnam.com/all-products/fly-insect-control/equi-spot
https://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/pro-force-50-spot-on-for-horses/p/17105/
Freedom 45 (Pro force? Why did they change the name?) is labeled for 3 weeks for ticks- 2 weeks for some other bugs. I don’t find it helps with anything other than the ticks, so I generally go closer to 3 weeks.
Thanks, I think I will try one of these. I usually use swat and spray, but every year they end up with ticks. I sure miss my guinea fowl!
edited for typo
