Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Time to build an indoor arena

Around The Farm
#21

Housing styling is absolutely a permitting issue here and unless you are on a totally private lot some # of feet (a lot) from any neighbor, any neighbor has the right to view your plans and has 45 days to file an objection to your proposed building. So no, you probably can’t build a geodesic dome in a neighborhood here, for good reason.

ugly buildings on other people’s property in view of my own reduce my property value, so this is absolutely a thing. This town is pretty lax thanks to a large number of decrepit historic buildings, but nobody within the town lines has ever had a fabric structure approved by a planning and zoning hearing.

#22

In some NY counties, the local codes have become rather restrictive and it is difficult to attach an indoor to the barn. Some jurisdictions don’t allow it at all. Some require a “firewall” of sorts between the indoor and the barn such as a substantial concrete block wall separating the two structures. But I have to agree that buying versus building is usually considerably cheaper.

I suppose it depends on your arena. Some metal roofs have insulation underneath. Some arenas have shingled roofs. And of course the width of the arena plays a role as more snow can fall off at once. I would agree that snow coming off any type of arena roof is loud, and horses need to be desensitized. We are in a fairly “horsey” area. Metal and wood arenas are common. We have only attended a show at one fabric arena in the area. But the fabric arena does seem noisier when snow falls and it makes a strange “ripping” sound. But as someone’s signature line states, the plural of anecdote is not data. :lol::lol:

In NY it depends on your county and your zoning restrictions. If the erection of an building requires a variance, a hearing is held.

Good point. Agricultural districts in NY have certain protections at the state level. Best to investigate all the local zoning laws ahead of time. If the local zoning laws are overly restrictive you may be able to get some relief if you can demonstrate you are a farm operation and not a threat to the municipality’s health or safety.

The fabric arenas certainly are brighter and often feel bigger due to the light and the ceiling elevation. However, I would be surprised if a fabric indoor arena could qualify as a temporary structure in NY. Certainly the footers and the steel structure aren’t temporary.

As an aside, in some townships, the building inspectors may not only require sprinklers but several fire exits to include metal doors that are hinged.

OP is located in NY and it is yet to be determined if her arena will qualify as a commercial or agricultural facility. But I agree, it depends on the OP’s local municipality and the zoning laws. If it turns out the OP needs a variance to put up the building because it exceeds a certain height or size, for example, and neighboring property owners can demonstrate that granting the variance would inhibit their rights, a variance may not be granted.

Parts of NY are very “horsey” but many of those areas are also very restrictive from a zoning perspective, especially those areas that are in close proximity to NYC. Talk to the township about the zoning restrictions. Get things in writing. Be prepared for unexpected red tape. Try to use builders that have been in business for decades specializing in horse facilities and have done work in your region. Some of the “Amish” builders you see advertising in national horse magazines have designers, engineers, and architects on staff, providing a “one stop shop” that helps to make the process relatively seamless. And they are often very price competitive if you do an honest “apples to apples” comparison.

#23

Probably the best thing is to ask people where you live - In my area there are a couple of barns with these types of arenas; they certainly are not temporary and I doubt they are categorized as such but…something to ask.

They are definitely lighter and brighter than most of the other indoor arenas I have ridden in and that is a huge attraction. Snow load and snow falling…? I don’t know; there aren’t many structures that don’t have their own issues with snow. Metal roofs are definitely a problem as well for noise; and all types can have load issues. It probably also depends on what you consider “upstate” and what your annual snowfall is like. If you live in Central NY and/or get a lot of lake effect snow this might not be best; but if you’re in the Hudson Valley, maybe it would be fine.

I personally don’t think they are an eyesore and I like the way they look on the inside as well; but I am sure there are pros and cons to every type of structure and best to ask someone that lives in your area if you can. That would be the best way to go into something this expensive with all the facts at hand.

#24

Here are some stories.

First link, builder’s forum asking about those, then a fabric covered salesman chiming in with his defense of fabric covered structures.
Those really have their place, but is more for the smaller, temporary situations, like oil field exploration and such, that are moved around every few years and the covers easily replaced then:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/fa…own-one-86085/

Second link, a steel building company web page with some descriptions.
They sell the metal structures, but they really have some good points other than a sales pitch for them.
Metal structures have been truly tested and found to be as advertised for decades now:

http://armstrongsteel.com/network/st…/#.Wsj-n62ZPPA

Their picture shows the light panel high on the walls, right below the eaves, a very small one but gives much light in there.
Most I have seen are twice that size.

#25

Seriously? Fabric covered covered (steel truss) buildings only suitable for the “smaller, temporary situations, like oil field exploration and such, that are moved around every few years”??? I don’t think we are talking of the same buildings at all. Have you seen the size of some of these riding arena’s? 120 x 300 feet and longer. Denver International Airport…just try and move that facility around. Its simply the cover of the roof…not the entire structure. I dare say these “fabric covered arenas” have way more steel by weight then a traditional steel sided and wood roof truss constructed building the same size. These buildings are NOT light weight by any measure. Those steel roof trusses weigh a ton apiece…probably much more. NOTE: Fabric Covered buildings have been around for decades now…and well proven as well.

#26

Sure, there are some big ones out there, but those seems to be exceptions by architects that happen to use those at that time for that purpose and overengineered for that to work.
Most such are not fabric structures.

If someone likes those better, why not, is their barn and it sure will be light in there, who would not like that.

#27

around here just mention a Coverall fabric structure and people remember the Cowboy’s practice Coverall building collapsing… fell to the ground in seconds. At least around here 64 MPH winds are not uncommon.

Just before the facility was flattened, winds were clocked at 64 mph, a single mph shy of the threshold for a weak tornado. However, National Weather Service meteorologist Gary Woodall said a “microburst” may have pushed the wind beyond 70 mph at the top of the structure.

Built at a cost of more than $4 million.

The no-frills building was pretty much a 100-yard football field with a few more yards of clearance all the way around. The roof was 80 feet high, the equivalent of an eight-story building.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=4127852

#28

Here is more on that failure:

https://failures.wikispaces.com/Dallas+Cowboy+Indoor+Practice+Facility+Collapse

Absolutely you can engineer for anything that will work, even the biggest covered fabric structure.

What we need to keep in mind is for many, cost is important.
The trick is to do it where it makes sense and the cost is not much more than a standard metal building.
That is where it becomes tricky if cost is a concern, which is not really in specialty buildings, where other is maybe worth more, like being seen as innovative or in any way special, or for advertising purposes you cut one building profit margins to even a loss leader that will attract others to your product.

It is hard to say on any one building, no matter how built, unless we are the ones footing the bill.

Decades ago we were asked to become a dealer for one of those companies and our covered arena would have been at cost, being the first one here and the company expecting that to bring them business in our area, is how that works.

Some of those with good ratings at times are just that, model structures to showcase a product.

As someone already said, many seem to be happy with theirs, so they are working for those people just fine.

#29

A fabric roof is noisy not just with the snow, but also with wind and ice/sleet. When snow zips off the roof it is extremely loud and quite sudden. On windy days, the gusts are frighteningly loud. I can’t even describe the sound of ice that is crackling and bits are bouncing off. Horses spin, bolt, leap, and some freeze with their hearts pounding. Many horses desensitize after awhile, but not completely. Many riders are nervous when it’s noisy and a common question is, “how’s the indoor today.” Some horses can’t handle it at all. Those horses usually leave. The ones that stay cannot be ridden on “noisy” days.

#30

some people were happy with their Yugo cars also , they did build nearly 800,000 of those things

#31

The natural light that the fabric arenas let in is a nice thing in winter, but come summer time I find them so hot and stuffy (even with doors open). We priced out a fabric arena for our farm, and it was more expensive than a solid structure would be, which I was surprised about.

#32

Not surprising, it takes more frame engineering for fabric buildings, since you don’t have somewhat rigid metal sheets helping hold it all together.
That makes them as or more expensive, I think.

That is where some early ones failed, didn’t engineer for the extra stress the fabric puts on the foundation and framing.
That is what the Dallas Cowboy field collapsed indicated.
I am sure those today take that into account.

One solution, as so many do today if it fits where you are, covered buildings with one or more sides open and using wind screens where you may have wind/moisture problems.

Now, metal buildings not completely enclosed cost about as much as fully enclosed ones.
The walls in a whole enclosure let the foundation and framing be lighter, four walls acting as extra support.

1 Like
#33

I’m about 90% sure I talked to my county about these buildings back when I was in the zoning office for something else (around 2013) and they consider them a permanent structure and will tax accordingly here. They aren’t super common, but you see them occasionally. Is everyone sure they are never considered permanent?

#34

[quote=“TrotTrotPu![](pkn,post:33,topic:445353”]

I’m about 90% sure I talked to my county about these buildings back when I was in the zoning office for something else (around 2013) and they consider them a permanent structure and will tax accordingly here. They aren’t super common, but you see them occasionally. Is everyone sure they are never considered permanent?

[/quote]

No, I did not get the impression that anyone on this thread knew for sure. The ones I have seen would be very difficult to be defined as temporary based on how they are built - fully enclosed with a foundation.

I suppose some of the “hoop buildings” might be considered differently. This certainly looks temporary:

[IMG]https://nlfabric.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/2012-07-10_15-07-22_880.jpg)

#35

I am pretty sure they are considered permanent. I think the ‘not permanent’ is for the tiny fabric buildings you buy in a box at Tractor Supply, not something like this.

#36

I took a clinic in a really cool hybrid of fabric and wood. The sides of the indoor were wood up to maybe 10 feet give or take. Above that it had side fabric panels up to the roof line. The panels could be rolled up in nice weather. The roof was also fabric. It poured the whole clinic and really wasn’t that noisy. I have been in metal roofed indoors that were much noisier. It was a really grey overcast rainy icky day and no need for lights. From the outside it really appeared to be a regular wood farm outbuilding.
To me this was a perfect blend of traditional and fabric. It had the appearance of traditional but the added value of the light from the fabric. Being able roll up the panels for the air flow would be nice. It looked like you rolled them up like blinds in a house. There were big doors on the two short sides of the arena for added air flow. When I was there it was all closed up since it was a very cool rainy day. Very early May in SE PA.

#37

This may be true where you live but there are different definitions of permanent in different counties and states. Here, a permanent structure is defined by the foundation, or in some cases whether there is one, and whether the building is attached permanently. In the case I cited about the barn, it was a huge building, two aisles, 26 stalls, two wash racks and a small arena, so it was a huge building. It was set on a concrete footing and attached temporarily (whatever that means. I suppose it means it was bolted down in a way that was easy to remove.) The barn owner told me that he chose this type of metal building because it was classified as temporary so he did not need to pay property taxes. I do not know whether an inspection was required.

But this is a good example of why you have to talk to the local supplier and your local building code department. What is allowed in one area may not be allowed in another; what is allowed in the county may not be allowed in your city. Also, codes change, what was allowed ten years ago may no longer meet code. If the company which sells the product has been in business for a while and is reputable, they will know the rules.

#38

I visited the coolest arena one time in Palmer, Alaska. I saw that the guy was out in front of the arena so I stopped and asked him if he could tell me about it because it was very impressive. He was happy to show it to me and very proud of his work.

The arena had metal framing and trusswork. I think the roof was metal. He had fiberglass insulation in the roof/ceiling which was not covered so the shiny side could be seen from below. (I don’t know if he planned to cover it some day.) He used scissor trusses because he said he was a roper and needed plenty of head space for his training and rope work and the building was spacious, 100’ x 200’. The best part of the building was the amazing light. All of the walls were made of translucent panels, from ground to eaves, and it was as bright as day inside. It was like magic. Fabulous. He said he doubled the amount of rivets in the wall panels because of the high winds in that area and the building was as tight as a drum. Another thing he liked about it was that the light shining in, which caused a greenhouse effect, coupled with the well-insulated ceiling made it really warm to work in. Although it was not heated, he said when it was 20 below and he brought in his horse to work, the temperature in the building would rise just from the body heat. (That sounds a bit implausible but that’s what he said.) In any case, he said it was always comfortable in that arena, even in very cold weather.

I loved that arena and if I ever built one in a cold climate I would do exactly the same thing. I love that there were no skylights to weaken the roof, require maintenance or leak (because in my experience, skylights ALWAYS leak) or allow heat loss. I love the incredible light which came in, without the expense of installing windows. I loved the vaulted ceiling which made the space airy. In the states it might need a different design to cool it in the summer though.

Sadly, when I look on Google maps, I cannot find it so I don’t know if someone tore it down or if the area developed and I can’t identify it among other commercial buildings. It was very rural back then, in the late 70s/early 80s.

#39

So I’m still not sure if you are talking about the fabric indoors that are entirely fabric and “round” or a steel/wooden building with just a fabric roof.

We have the later (fabric roof only, wooden sides and steel frame) at my family’s 16-stall boarding barn in MA. It’s 5 years old. Here are my experiences:

-I’ve ridden in indoors of all types in MA my entire life and I’ve never been in one where the snow/rain/wind wasn’t noisy, regardless of the roof type. Ours does make noise when the snow comes off, but I describe it as a “zipper” noise. I’ve been in metal-roofed indoors where the sound is much louder than ours.

-That said, I’ve found the major difference is that snow slides off of our roof within a day or two of the snowfall, whereas traditional indoors I’ve been in seem to have build up more snow throughout the winter and have one day where it all lets go come spring. That means we have more noisy days throughout the winter.

-The fact that the snow doesn’t accumulate on the fabric was a huge advantage several winters ago, when MA had a horrible winter with 7’+ of snow. We had indoors collapsing all over MA, and knew several other farms that spent small fortunes clearing their roofs where feet of snow had accumulated (one neighbor spent $7,000 to have his cleared to prevent a collapse). Throughout this entire winter, our roof never had more than a few inches on it at any one time.

-One thing we didn’t anticipate with the snow sliding off was that our driveway runs along the long side of the indoor. Unfortunately that usually means clearing the driveway again the day after the storm when the snow slides off. This would also be an issue with a traditional roof, but as I already mentioned, we get a release every storm.

-In theory we need to have our fabric panels tightened regularly, and sagging cloth would prevent snow from sliding off and be a danger to the structure. Ours is five years old and we have yet to need this, but I imagine we will at some point.

-As others have mentioned, the light is a huge plus - we really don’t need lights unless it is fully dark out.

-We really don’t use ours when our outdoor ring is useable, so I can’t comment on the heat retention in the summer. It is not attached to the barn either.

I hope this helps - as you can probably tell, we are very happy with our structure. Good luck!

#40

Those panels sound like GREAT advice! Duly noted! :slight_smile:

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse